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Lelit Bianca vs DE1 vs Londinium

11K views 76 replies 16 participants last post by  MediumRoastSteam 
#1 ·
I have had a barista express for 18 months now, and a Niche grinder for 12 months which i upgraded to.

I would now like to upgrade my machine. I discounted machines like the Linea due to the high price tag, and assumption that other than maybe build quality/reliability it has no advantage over the machines I've shortlisted.

I was previously set on DE1 but now unsure due to price increases, plus I've lost my initial interest in all the tweaking/experimenting it offers. I've also heard it stands out for light roasts which I don't really enjoy. The main reason it's still in my shortlist is because i love the quick start up time (i don't have a fixed coffee time daily) and the small form factor.

Londinium - (or some other spring lever machine?) - i really like the simplicity and beauty of these machines, and from what i've read will deliver equally good coffee (if not better) than other machines, without the need to have hundreds of profiles and settings to vary like the DE1 (yes i know the DE1 can also just work by pressing one button and not tinkering)

My preferences:

- Excellent quality, consistent/repeatable milk based drinks, often 2-3 at a time (i believe all machines can do this)

- Easy & quick workflow (Londinium seems best at this?)

- Quick heat up time (DE1 wins here)

- Good value (Lelit wins here)

Would love to hear about people's experiences with these machines, especially those of you who have used multiple and can compare.
 
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#3 ·
As you've dismissed the DE1 that leaves the Bianca and Londinium with a price difference between the two being in the region of £1,300 plus in respect of the Londinium R 24. That said, there is a Londinium R in the classified section priced £2,000 which would make a fairer comparison.

Not sure the Londinium is easier and quicker workflow-wise over the Bianca. It's down to whether your preference leans towards an E61 machine or a spring lever.

Speaking of the latter, ACS Evo is another recently released spring lever which is, when comparing new for new, more is nearer the Bianc, price-wise, and offers many innovative features and might be worth looking at.
 
#4 ·
i had a londinium l1 2014 and have a bianca now

theres something about a lever that is just magical

prep of shot is the same:

londinium

pull the lever - pre infuse as you wish let lever go - cut shot by moving cup

bianca

lift the lever play with the flow and cut the shot by closing lever

aftershot cleaning:

londinium quick flush done

bianca quick flush, then back flush with water

long time service:

londinium remove sleeve and grease,quarterly takes 15mins new seals once a yr

bianca chemical back flush and re grease the cam takes 15mins

shots wise

londinium can play with pressure but youre blind on temp, limited to 60ml shots maximum

bianca can play with pressure and temp

both can make excellent shots, fwiw i grind finer with the bianca esp if im flow controlling

i can speak of the acs as ive never hands on.

from a personal point of view, i up graded to a lr24 £3300 worth it came faulty and i sent it back, didnt get on well with the owner, i refurbed my l1 and again had bad experiences with their customer service. read in to that what you will.

but if you like lever style shots get a lever there is no machine decent inc that can replicate that inital hit of water to the puck, ill be honest i normally let th bianca rise with normal pump pressure then only tail down the shot to either a declining pressure or 6bar shot constant.

would i have another lever - you bet your bottom dollar
 
#5 ·
Thanks for all the replies.

Systemic Kid - i havn't dismissed the DE1 yet. I still really like the super quick heat up time as I often make coffees at random times and end up having to wait which is annoying. also for guests. And even though its expensive its still similarly priced to the Londinium.

Speaking of the Londinium I'm a bit confused after reading about models people have and looking at their website. Is the R24 the model i should be looking at? I've seen people mention models like the l1-P - are these discontinued?

I actually don't know too much about levers and had not heard about the Evo Leva before. I've read up a bit just now on the forums and it seems like a great option indeed. Any others I should consider based on my needs?

A few questions:

- In terms of taste, how does the Evo Leva compare with the Londinium/DE1/Bianca?

- The same question as above but for consistency/repeatability?

- I often make two milk drinks in a row, sometimes up to 3 or 4 even. Are all the machines equally capable in this regard ? I've read with levers you have to wait a while after the shot has poured before you can remove the puck? Also are all the steamers powerful enough to steam milk for 2-3 milk drinks at once?

- Evo Leva - i can't seem to find a website with purchase options for this, can someone please share a link?

- Heat up times - i believe Decent is ~6 minutes, Bianca is ~18 minutes, Leva is ~15 minutes, Londinium is ~1hr. Is that correct? I also read some people leave their levers on all day - do they consume a lot less power than machines like the Bianca which make that practical?

Thanks again everyone, really appreciate all the advice!
 
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#19 ·
From Londinium world, if you can plumb the machine, the best value for money is Compressa.

It is LR24 without the pump, the reservoir, the digital pre-infusion, and the wireless control.

The Londinium also has a single 3 litre boiler which is responsible for both producing hot water for steam as well as the shot.
In LR/LR24 - It is true for hot water and steam. The brew water is taken from water reservoir and heated in the heat exchanger. Boiler capacity is 2,3 l. Reservoir is 3 liters.

i love the quick start up time
Then Londinium is not your choice, it needs 45-60 minutes warmup. You can of course have some kind of smart power plug.
 
#6 ·
all of the machines you're looking at will make great shots.

it really comes down to whats practical for you, to add i believe the lever on the acs to be a bit harder to pull down than a londo due to the double spring, one thing to remember is never stand over a lever as it will take either your teeth or nose with it,

theres a small bit of time to let the chamber degas as your shot prepping so either here nor there

as far as im aware like londinium theres no real uk based service tech for the acs/decent? where as the bianca is sold via a uk supplier and comes with a full 2yr warranty
 
#7 ·
Very informative breakdown and comparison of the two levers!

The Evo Leva definitely sounds like the better machine on paper, but a bit of a risky purchase for now given how new to market it is. I may have to give it a few months and await further feedback from users on this machine before making a decision.
 
#8 ·
Sorry to be so direct, but why would anyone look at these 3 machines as they are really really different? it's like looking at all cars, from manuals to automatic to small compact city cars to big limos. Makes no sense to me.

If heating time is important then you need a 5-15 mins heat time not a 1 hour time, so you can directly cut the Londinium out.

Londinium has no temp control, so buh bye, 1990 technology outdated in such an expensive machine no ty.

Decent is a overpriced piece of ****, or if you want it more nicely spoken equipment. Cheap build, cheap feel, light weight, is makes a massive sound from the pumps, and has plenty of software bugs even on the stable version. Yes the possibilities to play with profiles are endless and the community is top with a lot more information than anywhere else. The producer and the team are really there, and help always, and respond fast to any question, you are covered 100% even after warranty went off. But the machine is a continue project improvement, both software and hardware, and you will hit your head with some bugs here and now. Is it easy to make good coffee on it? no.

Do you find it normal that after you upgrade to a Decent, they ask you whats your grinder, and if it worked with your previous machine and it doesn't work now you must cash out extra for one? like if you had a hand grinder or a sette that worked normal with your old machine, it wont be good enough for Decent. Then do you find it normal for you to use puck prep for all shots, previously you did not, and do you find it normal to add extra steps into your prep? or buy shower contact screens like Bplus, or add a spacer to resolve some of the problems. After you drop 4k on one, hmm.

As for Lelit Bianca it's the safest bet, you can make good coffee on it, with precise temp adjustment and the freestyle to pull shots how you want. But it's the same old e61 box, with a pid and a tap water foset that they make it cost 200euro extra for it. Lol, let's call it a Paddle. The Bianca is the cheapest and it's a capable machine. It has stainless boilers, with a rotary pump, and a compact size. The Londinium and the Leva are big machines.

I had the decent espresso and even wrote a review about it here:

https%3A%2F%2Fdocs.google.com%2Fpresentation%2Fd%2F11LW68_U4e8mNTpioFNTUAQ_7ferRpkdZ5L3cdvir4zE%2Fedit%3Fusp%3Dsharing&e=ATObZbRjrRLtfigC6qdbx3sxW1oFSZCBWLofN-ZXcy4KvluhvwdUrKEDTv0xy1eW0djnNIn8dnixklut_-ZYYvzc6cKirtKk5dhv3w&s=1

I now have the ACS Vesuvius evo Leva, that I am happy with it. But I got it cause I knew what I wanted, a lever with pid and precise temp control on everything. No more guessing and waiting time for recover between shots.

I already had several machines, including e61 machines. They are okay, but not for me. The Bianca is more appealing cause of the rotary pump, compared to other vibe pumps overpriced machines like /ECM.
 
#9 ·
Sorry to be so direct, but why would anyone look at these 3 machines as they are really really different? it's like looking at all cars, from manuals to automatic to small compact city cars to big limos. Makes no sense to me.
because each machine has its own appeals, and there is no machine that ticks each box of my requirements.

Do people who have more than one car not make sense to you? so many people have a collection of cars - Sports car, run around car, family car, compact city car. As you can see each car has its use case.

Unfortunately not everyone has the space and money to afford ALL the cars/machines . so i will have to make a compromise with whatever machine i decide on unfortunately. And i posted this to gather as much info as possible on each so i can consider all factors and ultimately decide which trade offs i want to make and where.

Price - Lelit wins here

Heat up time & size - DE1 wins here

Aesthetics and simplicity - Londinium wins here

hope that makes sense?

Nice to hear you are happy with your Leva, it is definitely also in my consideration now.
 
#11 ·
I guess the main concern regarding newness is not just about reliability, but about whether the combination of all these parts (even though all used/tested in their own rights in other machines) come together to build a genuinely great machine.

for example, a bit like the Decent, but do all these extra features actually result in better tasting coffee / or other practical benefits like workflow compared with the Londinium which is old/simple design?

Or does the use of a double spring lever come with "side-effects" which may be considered disadvantages and complications in the machine that are not needed?

Like with the Decent people complaining about the mouthfeel and hypothesising its to do with headspace. Little things and differences like this may come to light as more and more people use it.

The above points I'm sure are not valid on the Leva, so you don't need to justify it, i guess my point is its still a completely new product, and sometimes you can't guess what things may come up (otherwise it would have been identified in the design phase).
 
#13 ·
think the thread is derailing into a bit of an advert, theres bias amoung most owners be it coffee machines, cars or tv's

i wrote the leva off for it being new to the market and the pump noise, i do think it looks visually very fetching

@Denis Sdoes the leva inject the water into the chamber like a londinium under such force,? i know the decent cant replicate that. which is big part of a lever appeal.
 
#14 ·
@ZwiGGy If you check out the classifieds, you will find both a Decent and a Londiium R for sale. As others have said you have a great set of choices. I own 2 Biancas and can confirm that it's a great machine, I am using a Bianca at the moment. I have around 13 (I can't remember) espresso machines and looking at your possible choices, I am sure you will be happy with whatever you buy.

Each owner will have different criteria that push their buttons, sometimes it won't be based on technical considerations and just gut feel. Or simply, they like how something looks. There are massive differences (technical, price, quality) in all the machines you have under consideration...Sadly, these differences are not always obvious.

As someone who helps Italian manufacturers design machines...my viewpoint and knowledge base about them is very different to most. Many of the technologies/ideas in use in modern prosumer espresso machines came from me...anticipating consumer needs. Working with prototypes and the ideas stage (on machines, grinders and roasters) is what pushes my buttons as a hobby..
 
#15 · (Edited by Moderator)
When i first got into espresso about 18 months back i followed Decent quite closely for about 6 months and at the time was planning on getting one (it was just a matter of when not if).

For a start i really liked the fresh approach, John and his involvement in the community, their passion to get the best espresso to home users, analysing details and doing things that many machines can't do (e.g. control flow and pressure). At the time I thought all this functionality and output resulted in being able to extract the best coffee, but after more reading and research it seems like that is only really true for maybe lighter roasts which are quite fussy (and i don't drink/enjoy). At the time because i was new to espresso i was really interested in all the tinkering and ability to experiment but a year on into espresso i realise that interest has faded and i don't have the time either.

Having said that there are still great things about the machine not to discount - even though the extra features don't necessarily lead to better coffee than say the Lelit or L1/LR, it is on the same par at least, just maybe different qualities and the same price. So in terms of being able to product excellent coffee which is the #1 priority, that makes it a great machine for me.

The quick heat up (5 mins) is a big plus for me because I often have guests, and don't always have predictably timed coffee. The small size is also appealing.

Whilst the steam power is a bit weaker than the other machines, from what i've read it produces very high quality microfoam with less dilution than other steamers. It can also be timed to give consistent temperature without the need of a thermometer.

Most people who are unhappy with the Decent seem to be because of the occasional software bugs (which generally seemed to have been ironed out now) and lack of tactile feel (which is an experience preference) or realising they don't use most of its features, which i don't really see as a negative unless you are paying extra for them or it stops you using the machine in a simple way (which it doesn't).

I haven't found any unhappy Evo users, but that's because I've maybe only found about 5!

I am leaning more to the Lelit or LR/Evo now though.
 
#16 · (Edited by Moderator)
Faster steaming on De means more water injected into the heaters meaning wet steam, so the dilution in the De is bigger than on other machines. Yes you can set the flow and temp for the steaming, but then you will steam slower than a breville. You find a topic about Decent steaming dilution with weights on home barista, showing it has way more water injected into the milk than other boiler machines.

There are bugs in the Decent software right now into the stable version, so dont know where you get your info from but it's not really accurate.

Heating time for the De is not 5 mins, it's a bit longer, yes you can make a cold espresso after 5 mins but the steaming wont deliver the best results, more like 7 mins that is still faster than most machines. Decent drops 3C if you pull an espresso after 5 mins from turning it on, just so you know, and i'm talking about the set start temperature not the intra shot temperature drop. If you ask 90C water and pull a shot after 5 mins, you will get 87C water injected in the first seconds then it will go upwards.

If you have guests you can have a smart plug to turn on machine from 6 to 10 am and from 3 to 6 pm each day.

Guests can be 10 times a year, I would not bother with that in being a reason in how to buy a machine, you buy it for the rest of those 355 days a year not for those 10 days.

About size, have a look, if you dont have space then you can cut some machines off the list.

Home appliance Gas Engineering Machine Household appliance accessory
 

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#22 ·
Faster steaming on De means more water injected into the heaters meaning wet steam, so the dilution in the De is bigger than on other machines.
I think @decent_espresso would disagree.

https://decentespresso.com/overview

"High Energy, Dry Steam

Our steam heats up to 160°C (320°F), compared to traditional machines which max out at 128°C (260°F). We provide more energy per gram of water, so you can heat with less water. This means significantly less dilution of your milk and thus better flavor."
 
#17 ·
@ZwiGGy Sage DB heats up very quickly if that it important! With a dual boiler (I do not know your preference for style of drink) if you heat it up with all boilers then switch off the steam boiler it stays hot for ages so if 3 hours later guests come round it takes but a few minutes to come back to temp (true for any dual boiler). I think most folks leave their machines switched on all day. Many discussions have been had regarding switching off between use
 
#20 ·
I agree that whilst these machines are very different and it may be strange to some that you would consider them all, it certainly helps to discuss them in one place and get as much information as possible so you can figure out what will work best for you. I would do the same.

You mention that you like the small size of the decent but as per the above picture a lever machine is definitely more of a statement!

I have also read the same posts on the HB forum about steam from the decent in fact introducing a fair amount of water into milk. I think they were trying to improve this with higher temps - not sure how current models perform.

I have an ACS Minima and the steam is very dry. I can't speak for the Lelit Bianca, maybe @Cuprajake or @DavecUK can share having used both.

If you are no longer keen to analyse your shots and experiment with different variables then I don't see the point in buying a decent. If you wanted to and enjoy lighter roasts then it would be a more compelling choice and I could understand the appeal.

As you currently own a Barista Express I think the Lelit Bianca will be an excellent upgrade - it also includes flow control should you become more interested in lighter roasts. As @Cuprajake mentioned you can but it from Bella Barista and you're covered by a 2 year warranty.
 
#21 · (Edited by Moderator)
I have an ACS Minima and the steam is very dry. I can't speak for the Lelit Bianca, maybe @Cuprajake or @DavecUK can share having used both.
Minima has boilers as large or larger than other prosumer machines. Maximum performance, Minima(l) cost. The steaming on the Bianca is excellent....the steaming on the Minima...it's a steaming monster (2 litre steam boiler). It's like having a car that can go 150 mph, or 200 mph...on UK roads, it's irrelevant most of the time.
 
#23 ·
I only have experience with the DE1 out of this list. It is an excellent machine. But you know that already, because that's why it's on the short list.

Light roast, dark roast, Decent will perform superbly. Milk steaming is excellent. I've never had difficulty steaming from about five minutes onwards.

If you don't want to tinker, then you don't have to. There is a number of profiles that you could use out of the box and leave it like that. Maybe you want to use the Londinium profile... Or the GHC manual profile.

It's a lot of machine in a tiny footprint. Feel free to ask more.
 
#25 ·
A boiler at 128C and a thermoblock style steamer at 160 are two completely different things. One has a large quantity of water at 128C willing to turn into steam as soon as pressure is reduced by opening the steam tap and is a big energy store, allowing for the heating elements to kick in and continue to heat the boiler.

The second takes room temperature water and has to impart sufficient energy to turn it into steam (that's quite a lot of energy)...compared to a boiler that's already at 128C and 1.5+ bar. Dryness of steam then is purely a product of how much water you put into the thermoblock...a balancing act usually requiring a single hole or 2 very small ones..

I know this because I have been helping with some prototype work on a miniature steam generator for a new machine that could be coming to market, running at 200C, using a standard 2 hole steam wand (without a reduced tip size). 180C worked...but in the words of the great Roy Walker

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So we went large for 200C <lol> and then it was good, and it was right....whether it will blow itself up or not, only testing will tell. The manufacturer can put different seals in it if need be. At 200C, it gave steaming power comparable with most dual boiler machines!
 
#27 · (Edited by Moderator)
Listen, I read the entire decent forum everyday for hours after joining. I watched the videos, the explanation and the topics.

I had my decent, has good parts and bad parts. The steam is faster after they figured out they can use both heaters (steam and coffee water circuit) at the same time to steam, because before they would only use ~1.1m of thermocoil (not thermoblock they say it's not a thermoblock) for the steam and then they changed to double that length by adding the coffee water circuit so another ~1.1m so in total they have more than 2m of coils that is heating the water for steam.

That changed the steaming time from 30-35 sec to 20+ sec. Then they made the XL (that is more powerful) and now the XXL that has even more power, but it comes with a price, check it to see how much it costs. Even so some hx/dual boilers have better steaming capabilities with a much drier steam. Is the De enough for home to steam? absolutely, you see pros steaming with a gaggia classic or a breville with really good results.

My point is that there is a lot of setbacks and drawbacks from the thermocoil system and they came a long way and improved, but it's still suboptimal to a much cheaper boiler machine. My Leva eats alive the decent at the steaming chapter.

6-7 sec for 200ml on Leva with dry steam versus 22-25 sec on the decent for the same 200ml.

As for the profile emulated on the Decent, they are made by people, not by Decent. The Londinium, the Slayer and other profiles are not made by the company cause of patents, they dont even name the profiles Londinium but Londonium, and because fo that now they moved to D-flow profile that it's an updated londinium profile.

I will give you a small lesson why the decent cant emulate the Londinium, or other machines.

Londinium has a 25+g/s flow in preinfusion, the decent has a max 8g/s flow in preinfusion. Now tell me how can you emulate a 25g/s preinfusion with a max 8g/s machine? you cant, and if you search basecamp you find people who own both the Londinium and the Decent and say that running the londinium profile on De doesn't give you the same result as the real thing.
 
#30 ·
Thanks Dave for the detailed response, and everyone else for all your input.

I've eliminated the DE1 and its just between the Bianca and the Londinium/Evo now.

I got the impression levers main attraction was their simplicity whilst being able to produce (arguably) unbeatable espresso, so I'm surprised the Evo then decided to add complexity by way of extra features, if (one would argue) it is not needed/does not improve the quality of the shots.

i may wait a few months longer before deciding and see if we get some more feedback on the Evo from others.
 
#34 ·
I got the impression levers main attraction was their simplicity whilst being able to produce (arguably) unbeatable espresso, so I'm surprised the Evo then decided to add complexity by way of extra features, if (one would argue) it is not needed/does not improve the quality of the shots.

i may wait a few months longer before deciding and see if we get some more feedback on the Evo from others.
In the image below, we see the evolution of the motor car, the next photo would obviously be of the electric car. With each generation, the car improved, technically, build quality, reliability and performance. When I was young my dad used to say, "they don't make them like they used to" (he was a motor mechanic), then the Japanese pushed the market and along came the modern car with the demise of the old British marques. My dad still used to say, "they don't make them like they used to", but added "thank god"

Wheel Car Tire Automotive parking light Land vehicle


The espresso machine is no different. We now have electronic temperature control not pressurestats, twin boilers, PIDs. All of which make the machines easier to use and more capable of not only repeatable results, but tunable results to match the coffees being roasted and the capabilities of grinders now available to the prosumer market.

I saw a comment earlier that the Londinium is old tech, in many ways there's nothing wrong with that, I like the E61 group, that's old tech, I like the Evo group that's old tech. What I really like is when the best of the old tech is married to the best of new tech.. In a sense, the Londinium is technological laziness, which (at the price) is an insult to the consumer. Just recently the innovation of a thermistor, instead of a noisy old pressurestat was introduced. Perhaps one day they will use an insulated steel boiler, ventilate the case, fit a proper cup rack...you know, the little things. The group Londinium use limits what they can do technologically, but it is much cheaper for the factory (Fracino) to buy. I will admit not being a fan of the Fiorenzato type group, simply because of the way it works and the quality of what it is. I always liked the LSM group type though, from the first time I used on a Pompeii.

I'm also not pushing the Evo in particular, people have to buy what's right for them. it's important though to really understand what it is you're getting. Machines like the ECM, Bianca, MaraX, Minima, Vesuvius PP, etc. are all attempting to marry the best of old school with modern tech. Some manufacturers rested on their laurels, took the easy route, and faded into relative obscurity. My technical and design view experience of espresso machines means I fully understand the technologies, strengths and weaknesses in a way the consumer can't. This gives me quite a different view on certain machines.

Next week I get a top of the range Vibiemme to have a look at and review. It's interesting because they are an owner company, not corporate and I like working with companies like that. I'm curious to see where they are now, because they lost their way a decade or so ago along with quite a few other companies. From what I hear though...they may be back...we shall see.
 

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#31 · (Edited by Moderator)
There is no way you can pull a dark roast (Passalacqua Harlem) or a nordic filter roast (example Tim Wendelboe) at the same temperature parameters.

So it is mandatory to have a consistent repeatable temp control on a machine. Also is is moronic to have a steam boiler in direct connection to a brew boiler, since if you need lower temp you will lower your steam boiler pressure, having a less powerful steam. You must learn to control the steaming if you are going to jump from a 1.1 bar steam boiler to a 1.4 bar.

So the Evo Leva is just a respond to modern times and needs, where some people pull light stuff, while others pull dark southern italian blends.

A simple example is this, here is a light filter roast vs a dark south Italy roast, there is no way in hell you are going to pull them the same, you need a different ratio, a different temp.

Food Tableware Plant Ingredient Single-origin coffee


Food Single-origin coffee Plant Black Gesture


Tableware Food Cortado Single-origin coffee Drinkware


Food Tableware Dishware Drinkware Ingredient
 

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#32 ·
@ZwiGGy I think what Dennis says is extremely accurate. To sum it up, the Evo combines old with new. A lever machine that does not offer temperature control, or any way of reviewing it, independent dual boilers, or any way of seeing the bar pressure in the group, really are making the most extraordinary claims to which they are simply not able to substantiate......other than perhaps shouting very loudly and virtue signalling amongst their own clan
 
#35 ·
Light filter roasts are a fairly new thing in terms of coffee
Not sure it's fairly new thing. Had an HG 1 when they first came out paired with a Londinium and was very happy with the coffee it produced until my curiosity drew me to HasBean whose roasts, being lighter, were incompatible, IMO, with the HG 1 producing sour shots so I sold the HG 1 and got an EK 43 - that was 2014.
 
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