Jump to content
IGNORED

Brew times, using Vesuvius.


Recommended Posts

I've found that my brew-times have extended, using a reducing pressure profile on the Vesuvius.

I suppose that should be little surprise, as the water will take longer to work its way through.

Another observation is that I can pull more than my normal weight of brew and not detect additional bitterness.

I may try experimenting to see how far I can go but wondered if anyone can comment on their experiences?

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
53 minutes ago, rogher said:

I've found that my brew-times have extended, using a reducing pressure profile on the Vesuvius.

I suppose that should be little surprise, as the water will take longer to work its way through.

Another observation is that I can pull more than my normal weight of brew and not detect additional bitterness.

I may try experimenting to see how far I can go but wondered if anyone can comment on their experiences?

You should not be surprised by that. I went through the same experience. My shots often are 45-50 seconds and no trace of bitterness. I would say this is one of the beauty of the V as a coffee profiling machine (in fact the first in the market offering this function). It produces excellent shots, shot after shot. 

  • Like 2

Nothing succeeds as planned.

 

ACS Vesuvius, Nuova Simonelli Apia I 1 gr, San Remo 1 gr., Bezzera BZ35e, Fracino Heavenly, Saeco Via Veneto Combi de Luxe, Mythos Plus Nuova Simonelli, Anfim Super Lusso, Cunill Space, Gene Cafe

Link to post
Share on other sites

Perhaps the key is not to maintain the peak pressure for too long. There may be a pressure below which bitterness cannot be obtained. There are so many variables, it could take some time before deducing their impacts.

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, L&R said:

My shots are 40-60sec incl preinfusion and they are great for me.

I'm doing the pre-infusion separately at the moment. I have put them into the same profile but feel that I have slightly better control that way. Just need to be careful to manage the profile numbers correctly...

P1=pre-infusion

P2=light roast

P3=dark roast

P4=experimentation

P5=back flush

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
58 minutes ago, John Yossarian said:

You should not be surprised by that. I went through the same experience. My shots often are 45-50 seconds and no trace of bitterness. I would say this is one of the beauty of the V as a coffee profiling machine (in fact the first in the market offering this function). It produces excellent shots, shot after shot. 

 

44 minutes ago, L&R said:

My shots are 40-60sec incl preinfusion and they are great for me.

@John Yossarian @L&R So at what point do you stop your shot? Once the desired weight of espresso is extracted or you let it run until the end of the profile?

 

37 minutes ago, rogher said:

I'm doing the pre-infusion separately at the moment. I have put them into the same profile but feel that I have slightly better control that way. Just need to be careful to manage the profile numbers correctly...

P1=pre-infusion

P2=light roast

P3=dark roast

P4=experimentation

P5=back flush

@rogher what is your profile for the backflush? Actually Would you mind sharing all of your profiles?

Link to post
Share on other sites
34 minutes ago, L&R said:

never drink more than 35ml espresso

My point being that your shot times are 40-60 seconds. Is this dependent on the bean you are using or are you manually stopping your shot early sometimes once your shot reaches 35ml. The reason I ask is because sometimes using the Vesuvius I will pull a shot that just seems to run a bit faster than it did say the day before. Instead of the 52 second brew cycle, I’ll reach the 1:2 ratio in say 45 seconds. So would you just stop the shot early and be happy with it?

Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, Karka said:

My point being that your shot times are 40-60 seconds. Is this dependent on the bean you are using or are you manually stopping your shot early sometimes once your shot reaches 35ml. The reason I ask is because sometimes using the Vesuvius I will pull a shot that just seems to run a bit faster than it did say the day before. Instead of the 52 second brew cycle, I’ll reach the 1:2 ratio in say 45 seconds. So would you just stop the shot early and be happy with it?

I have graduated glasses and this is my criterion when to stop. I never go beyond a double ristretto, i.e. 40 ml and I stop the shot manually. In fact I have never waited for the profile to finish on its own.

I very rarely see gushing through the puck but as DaveC has mentioned on many occasions V is asking for a very good grinder. 

Nothing succeeds as planned.

 

ACS Vesuvius, Nuova Simonelli Apia I 1 gr, San Remo 1 gr., Bezzera BZ35e, Fracino Heavenly, Saeco Via Veneto Combi de Luxe, Mythos Plus Nuova Simonelli, Anfim Super Lusso, Cunill Space, Gene Cafe

Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, John Yossarian said:

I have graduated glasses and this is my criterion when to stop. I never go beyond a double ristretto, i.e. 40 ml and I stop the shot manually. In fact I have never waited for the profile to finish on its own.

I very rarely see gushing through the puck but as DaveC has mentioned on many occasions V is asking for a very good grinder. 

Yep that’s great to know. I’ve not had the Vesuvius long and using profiles set up by the previous owner. I never really knew if it was a problem if I stopped the shot slightly early or if I needed to adjust my dose or grind to get the correct ratio in the set time. I’m using a mazzer major currently but have a lagom p-64 on order so pretty sure the grind is good. 

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Karka said:

Yep that’s great to know. I’ve not had the Vesuvius long and using profiles set up by the previous owner. I never really knew if it was a problem if I stopped the shot slightly early or if I needed to adjust my dose or grind to get the correct ratio in the set time. I’m using a mazzer major currently but have a lagom p-64 on order so pretty sure the grind is good. 

You have got all it takes to have brilliant shots indeed.🙂

  • Like 1

Nothing succeeds as planned.

 

ACS Vesuvius, Nuova Simonelli Apia I 1 gr, San Remo 1 gr., Bezzera BZ35e, Fracino Heavenly, Saeco Via Veneto Combi de Luxe, Mythos Plus Nuova Simonelli, Anfim Super Lusso, Cunill Space, Gene Cafe

Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Karka said:

 

@John Yossarian @L&R So at what point do you stop your shot? Once the desired weight of espresso is extracted or you let it run until the end of the profile?

 

@rogher what is your profile for the backflush? Actually Would you mind sharing all of your profiles?

You may have them by all means.

I may sound more diligent than I actually am. I intended to keep things on a spreadsheet but found that I don’t always keep that up to date. I’ll attach the sheet for you. If you can use Excel you will see the profiles in the first sheet, with a plot on the second one.

I have used the first stage as a pre-infusion step, so it sometimes has a zero duration and the final (7th) stage as a safety margin (over-run). The core profile sits in stages 2-6. I don’t usually weigh the output as it arrives but choose to stop by the appearance of the pour and amount in the cup (for a forgiving Latte) and sometimes exceed the recommended amount.

You can, of course enter your own data and compare results. I’ve left all the data in it but cannot now remember what all the values represent (memory fades fast with age).

I’ve set it up to list 30 different profiles but it could easily be adapted.

The ‘PLOT’ tab/sheet is protected (without a password) to save me from over-writing some of the calculated fields that produce the graph.

The Vesuvius doesn’t follow the programmed pressure rigorously, as I’m sure you’ll know, but I didn’t try to add in factors for acceleration, to smooth the graph. Someone else might like to try that!

I think the key point is the initial peak pressure and the amount of time it’s maintained for. After that, we can play with the rate of decline (which seems to avoid going ‘hard’ enough to extract bitterness). There’s so much to learn! As I’ve been using the machine for less than a month (@ two shots or less/day) I am in the very early stages of discovery.

 

Ahhh - just found that I cannot upload a spreadsheet...

(is there a back-door?)

I've loaded it as a PDF instead.

Profiles.pdf

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, rogher said:

 

You may have them by all means.

I may sound more diligent than I actually am. I intended to keep things on a spreadsheet but found that I don’t always keep that up to date. I’ll attach the sheet for you. If you can use Excel you will see the profiles in the first sheet, with a plot on the second one.

I have used the first stage as a pre-infusion step, so it sometimes has a zero duration and the final (7th) stage as a safety margin (over-run). The core profile sits in stages 2-6. I don’t usually weigh the output as it arrives but choose to stop by the appearance of the pour and amount in the cup (for a forgiving Latte) and sometimes exceed the recommended amount.

You can, of course enter your own data and compare results. I’ve left all the data in it but cannot now remember what all the values represent (memory fades fast with age).

I’ve set it up to list 30 different profiles but it could easily be adapted.

The ‘PLOT’ tab/sheet is protected (without a password) to save me from over-writing some of the calculated fields that produce the graph.

The Vesuvius doesn’t follow the programmed pressure rigorously, as I’m sure you’ll know, but I didn’t try to add in factors for acceleration, to smooth the graph. Someone else might like to try that!

I think the key point is the initial peak pressure and the amount of time it’s maintained for. After that, we can play with the rate of decline (which seems to avoid going ‘hard’ enough to extract bitterness). There’s so much to learn! As I’ve been using the machine for less than a month (@ two shots or less/day) I am in the very early stages of discovery.

 

Ahhh - just found that I cannot upload a spreadsheet...

(is there a back-door?)

I've loaded it as a PDF instead.

Profiles.pdf 116 kB · 4 downloads

Thanks for that. So much information to get my head around! I really like the idea of allowing for the over-run. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

FYI there isn't a a pressure below which bitterness cannot be obtained. There's nothing particularly odd about 40-60 second shot times, especially with extended pre-infusion and especially at low ratios that are very difficult to over extract with a light-medium roast.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, Karka said:

Thanks for that. So much information to get my head around! I really like the idea of allowing for the over-run. 

No probs.

I note that, in my haste to please, the data I sent was not very tidy and no valid profile had been selected, so that the plot was blank.

I first started with two profiles: One for pre-infusion. this was a 'flat' 2.0bar but I found was not always enough to 'break through'. That's why I added the rising pressures after an initial 2.0 but never needed to get to the far end. The second profile was a standard 'flat' 9.0bar which I used to judge the initial set-up with (it seemed like a good idea at the time), to get 38g from an 18g grind in around 25sec after first drip.

Now that I have that set up, I'm trying to keep everything the same and intend to 'play' with the pressure. Concentrating on initial peak, then duration, then rate of decline...

Don't rely on what I'm doing, though. It could be a case of the blind leading the blind...

If you'd like a copy of my Excel sheet, PM me and I think I can let you have it that way.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Considering Vesuvius - seemingly great machine

Looks like several of you have extended experience with this machine.. they are at significant discount currently, and I am concerned about quality issues.. what has been your experience?  Also, are ALL machines coming with SS tubing and upgraded sensors, or just those imported to the US by US distributors/dealer?

Link to post
Share on other sites
20 hours ago, rogher said:

No probs.

I note that, in my haste to please, the data I sent was not very tidy and no valid profile had been selected, so that the plot was blank.

I first started with two profiles: One for pre-infusion. this was a 'flat' 2.0bar but I found was not always enough to 'break through'. That's why I added the rising pressures after an initial 2.0 but never needed to get to the far end. The second profile was a standard 'flat' 9.0bar which I used to judge the initial set-up with (it seemed like a good idea at the time), to get 38g from an 18g grind in around 25sec after first drip.

Now that I have that set up, I'm trying to keep everything the same and intend to 'play' with the pressure. Concentrating on initial peak, then duration, then rate of decline...

Don't rely on what I'm doing, though. It could be a case of the blind leading the blind...

If you'd like a copy of my Excel sheet, PM me and I think I can let you have it that way.

Yeah that all makes a lot of sense. Great idea to start with a flat 9bar just to set the standard to compare all variations. It’s good to know and be able to easily see and taste the benefits of pressure profile. 
 

I’ll drop you a dm with my email so you can forward your spreadsheet. Saves me a lot of legwork 😆 

Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, sms4Huo said:

Considering Vesuvius - seemingly great machine

Looks like several of you have extended experience with this machine.. they are at significant discount currently, and I am concerned about quality issues.. what has been your experience?  Also, are ALL machines coming with SS tubing and upgraded sensors, or just those imported to the US by US distributors/dealer?

Why are you concerned about quality issues?

Are you in the US or EU/UK?

I don't believe all of them come with SS tubing as standard. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 12/02/2021 at 18:13, rogher said:

 

You may have them by all means.

I may sound more diligent than I actually am. I intended to keep things on a spreadsheet but found that I don’t always keep that up to date. I’ll attach the sheet for you. If you can use Excel you will see the profiles in the first sheet, with a plot on the second one.

I have used the first stage as a pre-infusion step, so it sometimes has a zero duration and the final (7th) stage as a safety margin (over-run). The core profile sits in stages 2-6. I don’t usually weigh the output as it arrives but choose to stop by the appearance of the pour and amount in the cup (for a forgiving Latte) and sometimes exceed the recommended amount.

You can, of course enter your own data and compare results. I’ve left all the data in it but cannot now remember what all the values represent (memory fades fast with age).

I’ve set it up to list 30 different profiles but it could easily be adapted.

The ‘PLOT’ tab/sheet is protected (without a password) to save me from over-writing some of the calculated fields that produce the graph.

The Vesuvius doesn’t follow the programmed pressure rigorously, as I’m sure you’ll know, but I didn’t try to add in factors for acceleration, to smooth the graph. Someone else might like to try that!

I think the key point is the initial peak pressure and the amount of time it’s maintained for. After that, we can play with the rate of decline (which seems to avoid going ‘hard’ enough to extract bitterness). There’s so much to learn! As I’ve been using the machine for less than a month (@ two shots or less/day) I am in the very early stages of discovery.

 

Ahhh - just found that I cannot upload a spreadsheet...

(is there a back-door?)

I've loaded it as a PDF instead.

Profiles.pdf 116 kB · 11 downloads

I still have very limited experience, but using a similar approach.

I was faffing around at the start with "lever" profiles, but ended up just using a simple 20s 2bar pre-infusion, then 9 bar until I reach 2:1 extraction, usually after about 45-60 seconds. Got some decent results even with a flat profile.

Now I am starting to tweak that profile a tad with a taper. I find that bitter coffee is somewhat drinkable, for me but sour under extracted coffee I have to pour down the sink. So I tend to always run for close to 60 second including pre-infusion, just to make sure I don't under extract. But I am also having problems with the pump accelerometer settings, so trying to sort that out at the same time!

I am hoping to do some sort of review at some point with my experience. I think unless you really know what your doing (grind settings, PID settings, pump acc settings, and pressure settings), it's better to use a flat profile and so you don't get frustrated too at the beginning!

Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, sjm85 said:

I still have very limited experience, but using a similar approach.

I was faffing around at the start with "lever" profiles, but ended up just using a simple 20s 2bar pre-infusion, then 9 bar until I reach 2:1 extraction, usually after about 45-60 seconds. Got some decent results even with a flat profile.

If you want to see exactly what a commercial spring lever lever profile does, pressures etc.....check out my latest vid on YouTube. Then try and program it in.

Nothing here...

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, DavecUK said:

If you want to see exactly what a commercial spring lever lever profile does, pressures etc.....check out my latest vid on YouTube. Then try and program it in.

Thanks Dave. Will take a look!

I work at the hospital, but my wife works at home and uses the machine daily. So a lever was always out of the question, but it'd be good to emulate it as much as possible with the V to experience the results!

I could use some help with the pump acc settings. I will start a separate thread. We are also getting a Helios 80 delivered tomorrow, I was waiting for a Niche but am using the extra money from selling my Gaggia/SJ for an on-demand grinder, which again, is better option for us. Never been a fan of single dosing. Will get the grinder set up, and then ask for help!

Link to post
Share on other sites

If its a V sold in the last year or 2, then the Cruzet, who make the induction part of the pump for Fluid-o-tech changed the impulses per second parameters. This means the pump acceleration numbers may have to be far lower than the ones in my documentation..giving a smoother transition from one pressure stage, to another.

Nothing here...

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

The PWM Max Accel. Setting on my new machine is 400 (no idea what units). I haven’t changed any of the factory settings on the basis that I don’t know any better. I have noticed that it takes a few seconds to ramp up to 9 bar (and then overshoots) but haven’t been tempted to adjust anything yet. 

I’m still swapping between a familiar flat 9bar profile (as my baseline for comparison) and a higher initial pressure, reducing. At one shot a day and only one change at a time, occasionally, means it could be a long voyage of discovery…

I have made notes about settings and using the machine and am still adding to them as it helps me to understand what is going on (ECO mode sounded simple enough, at first, until I started to use the interface).

Link to post
Share on other sites
22 hours ago, DavecUK said:

If you want to see exactly what a commercial spring lever lever profile does, pressures etc.....check out my latest vid on YouTube. Then try and program it in.

Where does one find these?

Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

  • About
    Coffee Forums UK is the UK's premier coffee forum Started in June 2008 by Glenn Watson, we now have more than 24000 mainly UK based members, and welcome more than 3000 members and visitors from around the world each day! With strategic investment and digital expertise from the Jackson Lockhart team (Tait Pollack and Adam Bateman), we are taking Coffee Forums UK to the next level, and are delighted to share the journey with you.

    New Members:
    We are often referred to as the friendliest forum on the web and we look forward to welcoming you onboard. Please read our Terms of Use. We stick by them, existing members please familiarise yourselves with them.


    Advertising

    Coffee Forums Media Kit

    Click Here To Buy Advertising Space 
    £100 p/m when paid yearly, up-to: 690000 banner impressions per month!


    Donate / Sponsor

    Get Your Supporter Badge Today (per year)

    image.png



    Coffee Forums Logo
     

×
×
  • Create New...