Only place I can find is on Indigogo, however on adding to cart I get this:
Crowdfunding is not shopping
Your donation is a way to support a project but does not guarantee that you will receive a perk.
You may request a full refund from Indiegogo until January 09, 2021. Any refunds after this date are the responsibility of the campaign owner, Martin Nicholson, at their discretion.
I do not feel comfortable buying something only to be told I am not actually buying anything, and I certainly do not want to 'donate' £500 to anyone! Why is a company who has as far as I can tell sold almost £10M worth of product doing this? It doesn't instil confidence and seems like a way to avoid being held to account 😕
If you are not happy with the t&c then just don't buy it, it's quite a simple black or white choice. I was, I did and I am now the owner of a very capable grinder as have thousands of others. It's not really a subject of debate.
Risk? Sorry, I'm not following. Everyone buys from there, that's the official channel. The only risk there was was when the funding campaign started and the product did not exist. Now, it does, it's mass produced, demand constant outweighs supply.
I agree if seems weird, and I'm sure Niche has their reasons why they haven't created an e-shop on their website rather than continuing with indiegogo.
Risk? Sorry, I'm not following. Everyone buys from there, that's the official channel. The only risk there was was when the funding campaign started and the product did not exist. Now, it does, it's mass produced, demand constant outweighs supply.
I agree if seems weird, and I'm sure Niche has their reasons why they haven't created an e-shop on their website rather than continuing with indiegogo.
When I backed Niche, I accidentally donated the money with no product. James at Niche e-mailed me, suspecting I had made a mistake and changed my order to receive the grinder. I found that reassuring.
Also, there are other grinders out there that you can "buy". So it's not really a problem.
There is significantly less risk if you buy normally without signing away your rights due to clauses like the one Indigogo is going to great effort to make obvious. I always buy with a credit card for example (as they are legally half liable for any purchases) however if that 'purchase' is classed as a 'donation' then I imagine you have ZERO legs to stand on.
I fully understand the worries but are they justified? Crowd Funding in usually associated from a risk perspective, of trying to get a product to the market. Niche have gone beyond that, a point upon which I think we can all agree. Whilst they use the funding site as a sales area then when you visit the page you see the warnings that have to be in place. I stress again, there is no risk. The grinder is not under development as it is the finished article. Every single owner has had to buy it in the same manner that you are contemplating, yet have you heard any dissatisfaction? Buy it and you will enjoy the benefits it brings, or do not buy it and sleep securely
I fully understand the worries but are they justified? Crowd Funding in usually associated from a risk perspective, of trying to get a product to the market. Niche have gone beyond that, a point upon which I think we can all agree.
I don't want to 'crowd fund' a grinder I just want to buy one and be protected under British law as I am with every other purchase I make - something that isn't the case with the Niche Zero.
No it is not unfounded at all. You are essentially at their mercy as, according to those terms the payment is considered a donation not a purchase. You have zero legal legs to stand on because of that clause.
Yes it's a bit weird that it's still an Indiegogo platform but if you pay the purchase price the grinder, you will either receive it or, if not, get a refund (although with the demand it's extremely unlikely this would happen).
The Niche is certainly worth the 'risk' in any event at their price point.
I keep seeing this point about the price, don't know about you but in Euros it's the half of my salary and like me about the half of the Spaniards (or more), so it's not exactly cheap. Yes, it's cheaper than other grinders but again, it depends of the country you live.
I do understand up to a point. It does seem a little odd to not have a 'proper' web shop for an established product. You can set up a Shopify store in an hour or two with zero outlay.
That said, they literally can't make them quick enough (or restricting supply is part of their marketing) either way their are clearly generating enough customers to sustain the model of selling through indiegogo.
I guess they feel if it ain't broke, don't fix it.
I had doubts few years ago when I first came across Niche. But when I revisited grinder update needs this year I just went for it, I think it is established way beyond any doubt. But if you don't feel comfortable, then just find different grinder to buy.
@Brook @Chriss29 from £10 million, please find me one example of an unhappy customer where things have gone wrong. Niche brought this grinder to the market with the assistance of @DavecUK and as such, the forum has been able to watch it all the way. I suggest that as new joiners, you take a couple of weeks reading through the Niche thread from the start
I had an issue with my Niche grinder back in September and needed a replacement.
Despite there been a backlog of orders being fulfilled for over 3 months at that time, James at Niche sent out a replacement to me the day after I emailed him and even arranged someone to pick up the faulty grinder a few days later from my house.
Top notch customer service and I would not hesitate in the slightest to deal with them again for future purposes.
Also, legally speaking (from a lawyers perspective here - take with a pinch of salt), there would be legal recourse to take if you sent money on the platform if you didn't receive the grinder OR a full refund. The worst that could happen is you didn't get the grinder and got your money back. But as I said, they have been extremely popular to date with no real issues at all and a lot of happy customers.
Ok I have emailed them, I will update you when they get back to me.
@dfk41, that's nice but it does not change the fact that if that clause can hold legal water, it would be classed as a donation and not a purchase. This means you have no recourse from your credit card company and possibly even legally via the courts. It's not a risk I am willing to take and it leaves a lot to be desired when companies try to use tactics like this to absolve themselves of responsibility - why not just sell the product like any other manufacturer or retailer, it's not difficult setting up an online shop.
@dfk41, that's nice but it does not change the fact that if that clause can hold legal water, it would be classed as a donation and not a purchase. This means you have no recourse from your credit card company and possibly even legally via the courts. It's not a risk I am willing to take and it leaves a lot to be desired when companies try to use tactics like this to absolve themselves of responsibility
Would also like to add my excellent experience in dealing with Niche:
In July I had a small issue with my grinder so I emailed James at Niche he sent a brand new grinder the next day to test alongside mine. Once I tested them both side by side over a couple of days and found that the new one was more consistent, they let me keep the brand new grinder. Given that my grinder was over a year old at this point, they went above and beyond what I expected - truly exceptional service.
I wouldn't hesitate to recommend Niche to anyone - they actually care about their customers and stand behind their product 100%.
Really dont see the issue here, companies been around for like 3yrs theres go knows how many of these grinders world wide...
Plenty of grinders for sale on uk websites
Bella barista
Black cat coffee
Clumsy goat
The legal recourse is a bit murky but if you were to challenge it in court and claim you were making a 'donation' in exchange for a grinder that comes with a 1 year warranty you'd probably win. There haven't really been any reported cases of Niches breaking aside from through misuse (i.e leaving the motor running for a week) so the warranty isn't really going to be worth anything anyway, which should always be the case....it's just there for security. Thousands of users not reporting any faults should also provide that same security.
Secondly, the Indegogo platform for Niche is well established; people hear that's the place to buy it. Starting a website is expensive, and when your supply is not capable of meeting demand it doesn't make financial sense to open a shopify store (with a monthly subscription) when you can just sell them individually with a % deduction by another platform which allows them to take payment before the grinder is even made. It's a completely different structure. If you were to buy the grinder on shopify they would only be able to take payment when the item is shipped to you; if you buy on indegogo they take payment and then pay the manufacturer to make the grinder. The way demand outstrips supply would mean the shopify website sits there for half the year not making any money while costing monthly fees.
That said if you want you can buy one second hand via an ebay store that won't come with any kind of warranty but will allow you to make claims in court technically against the seller (if it develops a fault within a year and ebay don't back you up). Or you can buy a different grinder from a different store and risk them not being around to honour any warranty you get in one or two years time, as always...
@********** I so want to remove that link....... to coffeeitalia....ah sod it, I'm going to bork the link...and point it to the companies many reviews by CFUK members.
Bit harsh. While i personally would have no problem buying I do understand why someone might have legitimate concerns. You are handing over £500 to a company and agreeing you aren't actually making a traditional purchase with them.
It's beyond comprehension that Niche still sell their grinder this way, at this point Niche should have a fully functional webshop like everyone else. There is no logical explanation for them to make it look like they are running a crowd funding campaign when they are clearly not, as they are just using Indiegogo as a webshop. Some of the responsibilities obviously lies at Indiegogo for even allowing such practice, but it definitely look like a way to avoid legislation regarding customers rights.
they might not, but to avoid such allegations they would be better off with their own webshop and no it neither expensive not difficult to run one in 2020.
It's beyond comprehension that Niche still sell their grinder this way, at this point Niche should have a fully functional webshop like everyone else. There is no logical explanation for them to make it look like they are running a crowd funding campaign when they are clearly not, as they are just using Indiegogo as a webshop. Some of the responsibilities obviously lies at Indiegogo for even allowing such practice, but it definitely look like a way to avoid legislation regarding customers rights.
they might not, but to avoid such allegations they would be better off with their own webshop and no it neither expensive not difficult to run one in 2020.
Exactly, this is the point, this thread started with a question out of curiosity, I think reasonable. Nobody questions the quality of the grinder of the after sale service, which I am sure is very good, only the manner of marketing and selling.
I have had to tidy some stuff in the thread....please play the ball, not the man, keep it reasonably respectful and respect others can have an opinion...even if you don't agree with it, don't get personal. I don't want to have to lock the thread because then it will seem like we are stifling free expression.
As I said before, hardly a topic which deserves debate other than in the case of the 'contract' which the OP has said he is not willing to agree to, being dishonoured. I personally have not seen one instance of that here on this forum. If this ever happens, I agree this would be a subject worthy of discussion purely to serve to draw attention to any actual pitfalls with such transactions. I didn't see any 'risk' that I was not prepared to accept. That being the case I'm happy with my 'risky' purchase as I'm sure are others on the forum.
It's beyond comprehension that Niche still sell their grinder this way, at this point Niche should have a fully functional webshop like everyone else. There is no logical explanation for them to make it look like they are running a crowd funding campaign when they are clearly not, as they are just using Indiegogo as a webshop. Some of the responsibilities obviously lies at Indiegogo for even allowing such practice, but it definitely look like a way to avoid legislation regarding customers rights.
they might not, but to avoid such allegations they would be better off with their own webshop and no it neither expensive not difficult to run one in 2020.
I thought I gave a pretty good example of the potential logical reasoning earlier, in my post above. Maybe my logic is faulty; I don't have experience of manufacturing and selling a product, running a webstore or a company. Seems logical not to pay to maintain a website that will only make sales for a few weeks out of the year when you can just pay a low % fee on each unit sold and take payment in advance of manufacture....
With 20,000 sold, if there was something underhand going on you'd think we'd have heard about it by now. They have profile on Instagram and FB and the company are accessible. I've been looking at them for a while and I cannot say I've heard a single instance of 'scamminess' or anything less than good (usually great) customer service.
I haven't bought one because I don't think I need it atm, but I would have no reservations buying one.
@profesor_historia I think that @malling made a good point, expensive depends on how you look at it and your expectations. I realise you said it's a significant portion of your salary, I get that. How about looking at it the other way, with the ease of dialling in shots, ability to return to a grind setting faultlessly, no purging, unless you are drinking incredibly cheap coffee (in which case you don't need a Niche), it pretty much pays for itself in 5 or 6 years, often much sooner. This is because the coffee you can waste works out to be quite expensive over a 5 year period.
So in a sense it's free....
My mum used to have a Plasma, on 12 hours per day as background and company (widow), I purchased an LCD TV for her and tried to explain (unsuccessfully) that the plasma used almost 500W anfd the LCD about 70W. £1.30 electricity consumption per day vs 13p meant the LCD would more than pay for itself in under 1 year. So she would actually save money in the long run because it had a 3 year warranty....she never really got it.
@profesor_historia I think that @malling made a good point, expensive depends on how you look at it and your expectations. I realise you said it's a significant portion of your salary, I get that. How about looking at it the other way, with the ease of dialling in shots, ability to return to a grind setting faultlessly, no purging, unless you are drinking incredibly cheap coffee (in which case you don't need a Niche), it pretty much pays for itself in 5 or 6 years, often much sooner. This is because the coffee you can waste works out to be quite expensive over a 5 year period.
So in a sense it's free....
My mum used to have a Plasma, on 12 hours per day as background and company (widow), I purchased an LCD TV for her and tried to explain (unsuccessfully) that the plasma used almost 500W anfd the LCD about 70W. £1.30 electricity consumption per day vs 13p meant the LCD would more than pay for itself in under 1 year. So she would actually save money in the long run because it had a 3 year warranty....she never really got it.
Totally agree, sorry about the comparison I made, a bit out of place. You are right. I think for me it's a bit difficult to jump from the very cheap second hand grinders I had during these years to a more expensive one and new, but this is totally my problem [emoji2].
@profesor_historia I understand I really do, and it's a sad fact of life that people with money always end up paying less for the same things compared to the poorest in society. e.g. Rich Person wants x, pays £1000, a very poor person buys it on the CC and pays the minimum back on a loaded card...effectively poor persons TAX of 20%+
Not saying your poor or anything, just illustrating the point...
It's like a Dalian 1kg roaster, if you have the space and spare cash, you could buy it as a home roaster and get your money back when you finished with it, having enjoyed a commercial grade roaster for a decade or more.
@profesor_historia I understand I really do, and it's a sad fact of life that people with money always end up paying less for the same things compared to the poorest in society. e.g. Rich Person wants x, pays £1000, a very poor person buys it on the CC and pays the minimum back on a loaded card...effectively poor persons TAX of 20%+
Not saying your poor or anything, just illustrating the point...
It's like a Dalian 1kg roaster, if you have the space and spare cash, you could buy it as a home roaster and get your money back when you finished with it, having enjoyed a commercial grade roaster for a decade or more.
Thank you@DavecUK , I got your point and you are perfectly right. Let's see how the Arco will develop but I know that at some point I will have to try the Niche
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