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New 1 group lever from ACS - Vostok 1 group


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6 hours ago, Levvieman said:

You say you manage the flex by lifting up the portafilter.That sounds crazy. A machine of this suze and price shouldn't have a flex at all. To me that frame just hasn't been designed right if it flexes.

you talk about longevity you expect from the machine. A flexing front would worry me.

 

@Levvieman It is not realistic to have a double-spring LSM group using up to 300kg of spring force as mentioned by @The Systemic Kid and not have it show some flex in a machine meant to be used in a non-commercial setting.

The degree to which it does flex has been minimized in the production Evo, but not non-sensibly that you cannot lift it from the floor to the counter without using a pneumatic lift table. So as sometime who looks for better ways to get things done, I found mine.

Just ask any automotive designer how they tame the frame flex when they chop off half the car to make a convertible. It's never "no flex at all" because it's simply an impossible pipe dream in a practical world.

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Flex is just a misconceived concept, on the whole dragged up by idiots flying the flag flown by folks who are not used to being questioned when they dish out pearls of wisdom, or is it shite......I get mixed up now

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In a race between a donkey and a horse, to see who could reach the bottom first..........one side has a commanding lead

 

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3 hours ago, DavecUK said:

 

The above YouTube video I found in Home Barista and was uploaded to YouTube about 7 years ago. I downloaded this small copy from youtube, a while ago. It appears to have been recently deleted. There is another where he added strengthening, but I won't put that one up as it showed a different issue..

I remember that one.From a german forum?

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36 minutes ago, Levvieman said:

I remember that one.From a german forum?

There are different mentality on flexible frame, some work on the rigid system to avoid problems with the other parts of the machine like the panels and other prefer to have a flax frame the most important thing is that all the time the frame go back at it should and not stay bent. In the video the group seems a standard Fiorenzato style with single spring any way. 

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40 minutes ago, Levvieman said:

I remember that one.From a german forum?

USA forum.

Sticks and Stones, sours…or rancid (horrible). Quakers hide until roasted, pick em out and flick them in the bin. Life is too short for bad coffee

 

 

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This is a similar "observation' made by "concerned pundits" when the Quickmill Achille was released in Australia around 10 years ago. It also has a double spring setup.

There were comparisons made to another commercial lever used in domestic applications and comments ran...

 

I have owned one of the original Quickmill Achilles since then and can report that no long-term issues have occurred.

I have observed that all commercial lever machines have some measure of flex in them.

 

I put the Evo observation in the category of "horsefeathers".

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I have to say that all of my initial fears regarding the Leva have been allayed and I have absolutely no regrets buying one. When I first signed up for the Leva it was not in production and there was only a prototype in existance. My main concern at the time was that my wife would not be able to operated the double spring lever, there was much talk on the strength required at the time. A bit of background - before we bought the Londinium we asked Foundry Coffee in Sheffield if she could have a go pulling a shot on theirs, and we also visited another board member in Middlesborough (sorry, forgotten your name) to have a try on his Londinium. So, having that amount of concern, it was with some trepidation that I put the deposit down on the double spring Leva. When we first got it, I was pulling the lever with both hands, now that we are used to it I don't even think about it, I pull the lever with one hand, my wife just gets on with it and never complains. So much for listening to people who have never actually used one.

Other concerns did not bother me so much; someone asked me if I wasn't concerned about being used as a prototype tester for the company. No, it didn't bother me as the specification and price were right, it is an established company using established technology and as long as I had support from the company I was happy to do any unforseen modifications should they prove necessary. Other concerns- weight on the counter, suck pistons, flexing. ease of use, reliability etc. have all been forgotten now, we just get on with using it to make coffee. A bit like being involved with HiFi equipment as a hobby, eventually you stop listening to the equipment and start listening to the music.

Honestly, I can't see me ever changing my machine, it ticks all the right boxes for me and what would I upgrade to? I have now modified my expensive tamper to fit the Leva, reasoning that I won't be needing a premium 58mm tamper for my primary machine again.

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@Norvin Funnily enough, that is exactly how I feel Les. Dave, Patrick and I talked volumes over the Evo project from start to where it is now. I ashamedly, have had dozens of coffee machines and I have never owned one before that satisfied the itch I always used to have. Can I ever see me getting rid? Only if they make it even better and I thought I would benefit.

Like you, I was a little bit unsure about the dual spring aspect, especially as I remember one commentator telling us years ago, that the reason their well known lever machine only had one spring, was because the strength of the dual springs destroyed the balance of lighter roasted coffee. Of course I accepted that, until it was pointed out that plenty of cafes serving non Italian style darker roasts had commercial dual springs without issue, meaning that the problem must be elsewhere......perhaps dual springs made it tip or something.

I also had concerns about dropping down to 54mm but thought, well, if it is good enough for LSM who produce the most expensive group available, some 40% more expensive than the popular Fiorenzato group, then it is good enough for me. On top of that, Paolo has had the group extensively customised by adding 2 heater cartridges meaning water is not needed to heat the group and allowing the temperature of the group to be set to the desired level, and adding a Manometer. Yes, I hear the naysayers grumble, exactly why would you want to accurately know what is happening in the group head and what pressure is being exerted when you can stumble around in the dark.....good question but I really do not feel the need to answer it when you can go work it out for yourselves!

For me, it will be interesting to see how many other 'traditional' lever manufacturers come round to the fact that in this day and age, electronics can and do make a difference.

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In a race between a donkey and a horse, to see who could reach the bottom first..........one side has a commanding lead

 

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5 hours ago, Denis S said:

I would say let's move on and do good coffee, and for the haters let them hate, they have reasons to.

0:50

 

https://youtu.be/_QDNtyHbDns?t=51

Are you kidding me.Just 48 hours on this forum and you qualify me as a hater?

I love the LSM group and am interested in any new machine on the market that uses it.

Why should I hate?

And regarding the flex.

Here's a video of my Pompei I made this morning.

So where does it flex exactly?

 

 

Edited by Levvieman
typo
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56 minutes ago, dfk41 said:

@Norvin

 

I also had concerns about dropping down to 54mm but thought, well, if it is good enough for LSM who produce the most expensive group available, some 40% more expensive than the popular Fiorenzato group, then it is good enough for me.

I do have to correct you here @dfk41 the Evo group costs the ACS factory 100% more than that other group, because they have used both types.

@Levvieman Denis has not classed you as a hater, he is talking about a group of other people, not you. His reference to 0:50s in the video was to something else he mentioned earlier, many posts ago now, about holding the portafilter handle. I think perhaps you're "getting the wrong end of the stick", as we say

Edited by DavecUK
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Sticks and Stones, sours…or rancid (horrible). Quakers hide until roasted, pick em out and flick them in the bin. Life is too short for bad coffee

 

 

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5 minutes ago, DavecUK said:

I do have to correct you here @dfk41 the Evo group costs the ACS factory 100% more than that other group, because they have used both types.

@Levvieman Denis has not classed you as a hater, he is talking about a group of other people, not you. His reference to 0:50s in the video was to something else he mentioned earlier, many posts ago now, about holding the portafilter handle. I think perhaps you're "getting the wrong end of the stick", as we say

Ok.My bad.Because I actually like the machine you designed.The first one  like this on the market .

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10 minutes ago, Levvieman said:

Ok.My bad.Because I actually like the machine you designed.The first one  like this on the market .

@Levvieman The machine you own, was the inspiration for me to help ACS create the Evo. I always loved the Izzo Pompeii and the beautiful group it uses...almost 20 years ago I wanted them to make a domestic 1 group, but it never happened. Seeing that group on the Vostok made me realise that a domestic twin boiler 1 group was now within my grasp. The PID heater cartridges are the icing on the cake which makes thermal control and fast warm up possible (much like the flux capacitor) 😁

The slight flex is because of the space frame style construction of the stainless steel Evo case and is nothing to worry about. Flex could have been eliminated by using cheaper thick powder coated mild steel and uninspiring construction...but why do that....when it's never going to be a problem? Except of course for some people (not you), who own another make of lever.

Edited by DavecUK
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Sticks and Stones, sours…or rancid (horrible). Quakers hide until roasted, pick em out and flick them in the bin. Life is too short for bad coffee

 

 

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2 minutes ago, DavecUK said:

@Levvieman The machine you own, was the inspiration for me to help ACS create the Evo. I always loved the Izzo Pompeii and the beautiful group it uses...almost 20 years ago I wanted them to make a domestic 1 group, but it never happened. Seeing that group on the Vostok made me realise that a domestic twin boiler 1 group was now within my grasp. The PID heater cartridges are the icing on the cake which makes thermal control and fast warm up possible (much like the flux capacitor) 😁

Yep.The group is heavy and takes a while to get fully hot.Fully hot meaning the even the lever itself is hot.

With flushing I could speed it up to about 25-30 minutes 

These days the machine is on a timer and in the morning when I get up is already on for a full hour.

15 minutes is pretty quick.

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A number of interesting observations:

1. Of the 20 or so Evo's now in the hands of paid owners who forked out real money then waited 6 months or so, not one has voiced a regret over their decision. In fact, the support has become literally fierce.

2. Almost immediately after any legitimate questions surface, multiple owners jump in to offer actual, factual experience and explanations.

3. Almost immediately after any questionably legitimate questions surface, multiple owners jump in to offer actual, factual experience and forceful defenses.

4. More importantly, the owners seem to be enjoying their espresso, cappuccino or whatever; light, medium or dark roasts; at various PI and brew, temperatures and times and the focus has always been on the drinks because the Evo just seems to get out of the way and deliver the goods regardless of what is asked of it. This is not the case with lesser levers which require multiple major  "upgrades" to make them perform even after being on the market for literally decades.

5. By a healthy margin, owners are content with the Evo the way it is delivered, with only the choice of shower screen circlip warranting a second look. But no "mods" are suggested or offered, no major flaws unearthed, unlike the umpteen LMLM mods hoping to justify the inexplicable price but sending the real outlay to near a GS3.

I am not a social worker by trade so I do not find using excuses for things that should have been done correctly acceptable. Perhaps putting a 2" square steel frame behind the LSM may completely eliminate any visible flex but that beast would be nearly impossible to install at home if it were to also have 2 boilers, 3 PIDs, a gear pump and a water reservoir for autonomy.

Grafting the LSM group to the Vesuvius chassis is a very pragmatic approach that brought us a superb machine with an accessible price at breakneck speed. I'd say what we are witnessing is a damned good report card for the Evo and its creators (and co-conspirators) and kudo's are in order.

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