Jump to content

Recommended Posts

I can hear the collective sigh.

I just wondered if anyone has done a proper double blind of conical vs flat with a decent number of participants to see how they really compare.

Perhaps we can set up a tasting after Covid.

  • Like 3

www.blackcatcoffee.co.uk

Coffee | Equipment | Accessories | Service & Repair

Fracino | Eureka | Motta | IMS

Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, BlackCatCoffee said:

I can hear the collective sigh.

I just wondered if anyone has done a proper double blind of conical vs flat with a decent number of participants to see how they really compare.

Perhaps we can set up a tasting after Covid.

It's doable but very difficult.

Problem is starting bias, or you could call it 'dialled in bias'. When pitting two grinders against each other people will usually dial in a coffee they know well to perfection on one of the grinders, then drag the other one along for comparison and make it produce a shot to the same metrics (i.e dose, ratio, time, pressure, temp). Trouble is nobody with any sense uses their equipment that way. Dialling in perfectly for two different grinders might mean two different doses, ratios, and times at the least, at which point user preference comes into play when people start preferring stronger or weaker shots. It's very easy to compare two grinders with static metrics but I find that fairly meaningless: it says "grinder A at [defined metrics] pulls a shot preferred by x% of tasters than grinder B at [defined metrics] with this particular coffee". 

You've probably seen what I've described before, e.g on the home barista threads where they get their 'hyper aligned' varios or whatever that they've been using for years and then grab a random new grinder to compare it to; they won't bother to dial in on the new grinder and then compare the vario to the best shots they can produce on the new grinder they'll just do it the other way around. Same with the Niche tests over there, they dialled in perfectly on the Niche and then just tried to match the shot with some random other piece of equipment. Though I haven't exhaustively read through their tests so I could be wrong on that.

You could do a head to head test of sorts by dialling in perfectly on grinder A, making B match it, then reversing the procedure and seeing which two shots score best overall. That would allow you to use the same metrics on two different samples and the bias would be accounted for.

ACS Minima (Beta) with Bianca Paddle -- Reskinned Ceado E8, Niche Zero --- Gene Cafe CBR101 with Dimmer Mod and Bean Mass Probe

WATER CALCULATOR

Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, Rob1 said:

It's doable but very difficult.

Problem is starting bias, or you could call it 'dialled in bias'. When pitting two grinders against each other people will usually dial in a coffee they know well to perfection on one of the grinders, then drag the other one along for comparison and make it produce a shot to the same metrics (i.e dose, ratio, time, pressure, temp). Trouble is nobody with any sense uses their equipment that way. Dialling in perfectly for two different grinders might mean two different doses, ratios, and times at the least, at which point user preference comes into play when people start preferring stronger or weaker shots. It's very easy to compare two grinders with static metrics but I find that fairly meaningless: it says "grinder A at [defined metrics] pulls a shot preferred by x% of tasters than grinder B at [defined metrics] with this particular coffee". 

You've probably seen what I've described before, e.g on the home barista threads where they get their 'hyper aligned' varios or whatever that they've been using for years and then grab a random new grinder to compare it to; they won't bother to dial in on the new grinder and then compare the vario to the best shots they can produce on the new grinder they'll just do it the other way around. Same with the Niche tests over there, they dialled in perfectly on the Niche and then just tried to match the shot with some random other piece of equipment. Though I haven't exhaustively read through their tests so I could be wrong on that.

You could do a head to head test of sorts by dialling in perfectly on grinder A, making B match it, then reversing the procedure and seeing which two shots score best overall. That would allow you to use the same metrics on two different samples and the bias would be accounted for.

Indeed there would need to be a methodology worked out for it that doesn't favour a particular grinder.

I have something in mind.

www.blackcatcoffee.co.uk

Coffee | Equipment | Accessories | Service & Repair

Fracino | Eureka | Motta | IMS

Link to post
Share on other sites

@BlackCatCoffee - On Dave’s Linea Mini poll thread there was a link to road testing the LM Swift (small conical and auto tamp) vs. a Mythos CP with a group of 10 regulars.

https://www.home-barista.com/reviews/la-marzocco-swift-mini-review-t61148.html

Looks like it came out even, not the biggest conical burrs but the Mythos is obviously a nice flat.

Edit: they agreed the in/out parameters and then got to play around with getting the best out of each grinder.

Edited by Northern_Monkey
Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, BlackCatCoffee said:

I can hear the collective sigh.

I just wondered if anyone has done a proper double blind of conical vs flat with a decent number of participants to see how they really compare.

Perhaps we can set up a tasting after Covid.

I would be really up for testing this after covid. Hopefully that won't be years away! 

Lelit MaraX, Niche Zero, MBK Feldgrind, Gene Cafe 101, several brewers... 

Link to post
Share on other sites

I thought about this now that I have a Mazzer Major E with new titan burrs and a Compak E10 Conical Master with used burrs. The thing is that my Expobar Office Control has just died and I am thinking of buying a new machine, but I am stuck between buying a new Rancilio Silvia ( I know it perfectly) or another Expobar second hand, or leave espresso for a while and focuse on filters etc...don't know.

Sent from my ALP-L09 using Tapatalk

Link to post
Share on other sites

I think the more interesting questions are perhaps a level deeper;

- how does familiarity with a particular burr set affect predilection for a particular choice in a blind test (e.g. if a taster only makes coffee at home with a conical, are they subconsciously benchmarking their perception of 'good' against it)?

- does the consensus burr preference amongst a group change if brew type and method is taken into account (e.g. percolation vs immersion, espresso vs drip etc)

- does the consensus burr preference amongst a group change depending on the particular aromatic qualities of the coffee (measured against the SCA's Coffee Taster's Flavor Wheel)

... etc

Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

  • About
    Coffee Forums UK is the UK's premier coffee forum Started in June 2008 by Glenn Watson, we now have more than 24000 mainly UK based members, and welcome more than 3000 members and visitors from around the world each day! With strategic investment and digital expertise from the Jackson Lockhart team (Tait Pollack and Adam Bateman), we are taking Coffee Forums UK to the next level, and are delighted to share the journey with you.

    New Members:
    We are often referred to as the friendliest forum on the web and we look forward to welcoming you onboard. Please read our Terms of Use. We stick by them, existing members please familiarise yourselves with them.

    Advertising

    Coffee Forums Media Kit

    Click Here To Buy Advertising Space 
    £100 p/m when paid yearly, up-to: 690000 banner impressions per month!

     

    coffee-subscription-mini.png

    Become a friend of CFUK
    Buy Us A Monthly Coffee (massive thank you!) 

     

    Donate / Sponsor

    Click Here To Donate (big thank you!)

    Get Your Supporter Badge Today (per year)

    image.png



    Coffee Forums Logo
     

×
×
  • Create New...