Jump to content

Espresso Machines, great but..


Recommended Posts

Im sure you've heard that bit before, but always being superseeded with.. 'b.. b.. guys my shots taste crap with my espresso machine and crap grinder & I dunno why..' not me/ not at all.

 

My shots taste fine enough.. just no different one from another. I cannot see how a better grind consistancy (for that would be the only difference between a 'good' espresso grinder and a 'bad' espresso grinder) will do anything to eleviate the similarity between A and B bar raise the taste std a fraction overall (NOT neccessary, the std is plenty high enough for me).. unless there is magic involved, or a bean grinder god that Im not aware of and I have to leave offerings to, probably sexual too/& Im not having any of that.

Edited by ~ Sea Chief ~
Link to post
Share on other sites

I would imagine that the way the beans are ground does matter.

 

In the same way that a blade grinder just rips the beans apart and gets them too heated, a better grinder that has good burr blades can grind the beans consistently, finely and without heating the beans too much as better grinders have larger blades and use a slower speed.

 

 

---

I am here: http://tapatalk.com/map.php?xhawum

Costa Coffee Beans, Ground Coffee & Syrups available at http://CostaShop.co.uk

Link to post
Share on other sites
My shots taste fine enough.. just no different one from another.

 

Yet still you're not going to take advice from a group of people who have great tasting shots and have no problem distinguishing between different coffees? OK, have it your way. :rolleyes:

 

Do you think we're all on the pay roll of grinder companies or something? Most have learnt the hard way that crap grinders just don't cut it in the world of coffee. End of. :dummy:

 

I will say one last thing before I leave this thread. Have you tried making your shots into Americanos? You can tell a lot about a coffee when it's diluted a bit. Try this with a few different coffees and see if you're distinctions come back. :coffee:

 

Here's the guys review of the Virtuoso (the 2nd part of the link above) http://skeltoac.com/2008/03/12/baratza-virtuoso-burr-grinder-review/

Edited by chimpsinties

Rocket Appartamento | Mahlkonig Vario | 58mm Rocket tamper | AeroPress | VST 18g basket | HappyDonkey Bottomless PortaFilter

Link to post
Share on other sites

Look.. I aint saying a better grinder wont make a better shot- I can see quite clearly that by all accounts it will make a (marginal to most/ huge to those who have spent £150+, of course) difference overall.

 

My grinder in fact DOES cut it in the world of coffee.. and it cost £20.. as it makes me a fine shot time after time.

BUT they all taste ~ the same: a better grinder cannot make them taste different...................... just both a bit better. Now you may be able to see Im not simply in the 'durr.. a crap grinder/ whaddya expect?' catagory (in fact Im dissing that theory somewhat).

 

For eg, I have just ground (again/ down to espresso-fine) some co-op ground coffee, not beans, a bag of ground coffee! bog std £3 stuff too (cos I live in the stix/ only coffee about). Prior to this Id just finished some Monmouth espresso beans. The cuppa Ive just now had is the bottom of my grinder 'tub' ie least fresh, & it is BETTER than any of the Monmouth shots, by a fraction, prob cos it was one of those shots one gets 'spot on' nowt more than that. But overall the taste was only a mite different between the two, if distinguishable at all. Both really decent. In a blind taste it'd be 50/50. Not sh*t Sherlock: 50/50. And Ive been a coffeee beano for a good 15 yrs, albeit a la french press or Mokapot.

 

In a fancy-pnts grinder it'd be 50/50 too.. Its just that the std of both would be (slightly) higher (and therefore not in any way of interest to me at all in this scenario). Sorry but simple logic states this has to be true.

Edited by ~ Sea Chief ~
Link to post
Share on other sites
a better grinder cannot make them taste different

 

...but that's exactly what it does.

 

I've always said, don't feel the need to spend a lot of money on kit if you can be content with cheaper stuff, and I think that's where you are. But when doing that you also have to accept that you won't get some of the benefits. A better grind influences the brewing process, creating different chemical reactions, different compounds, acids, oils, sugars etc, ultimately creating different tastes.

 

It may just be, though, that your olfactory and gustatory system is a bit buggered. I know mine seems to be!

Link to post
Share on other sites

Just repeating what had been said already, I.e if you're happy then thats fine. However a better grinder will improve the flavour and differentiate coffees more.

 

The thing that stands out to me is the fact that you're still grinding your coffee 3x before pulling shots aren't you? That can't be good for the coffee in terms of heat exposure. Could it be that your grinding process is diminishing the flavours of the beans you're using and bring them all down to a 'meh' level and none of them get the chance to stand out from the crowd?!

 

Sent from my GT-I9000 using Tapatalk

Link to post
Share on other sites

Sea Chief, what do you mean by "grinder tub"?

 

Aren't you grinding on demand?

 

Ideally you would have a good grinder, use fresh beans and grind them to the correct consistency just before you use them, if you're missing one of these steps or all of them then you'll never get a good espresso.

 

 

---

I am here: http://tapatalk.com/map.php?y44f1q

Costa Coffee Beans, Ground Coffee & Syrups available at http://CoffeeDelivered.co.uk

Edited by JohnnieWalker
Link to post
Share on other sites

Oh yeah, you need to be using the correct amount of beans as well! So that's 4 steps!

 

 

---

I am here: http://tapatalk.com/map.php?ap1121

Costa Coffee Beans, Ground Coffee & Syrups available at http://CoffeeDelivered.co.uk

Edited by JohnnieWalker
Link to post
Share on other sites
Look.. I aint saying a better grinder wont make a better shot

Exactly, you agree it will but you refuse to accept it because you don't think it's ok to justify that much money. It depends where your priorities lie. If you want better coffee you have to invest in it. You're just not going to get it from inadequate equipment.

 

BUT they all taste ~ the same: a better grinder cannot make them taste different

Oh but it can. It will improve the good coffee and bring out a lot of flavours and qualities that is missing with a bad grind. Whereas your crappy coffee probably won't be improved so much.

 

a crap grinder/ whaddya expect?' catagory

 

For eg, I have just ground (again/ down to espresso-fine) some co-op ground coffee, not beans, a bag of ground coffee! bog std £3 stuff

If you're tasting the same between some crappy stale pre-ground from a super market and fresh beans then I'm be inclined to think there's something seriously wrong with either your technique or your tastebuds.

 

Both really decent. In a blind taste it'd be 50/50. Not sh*t Sherlock: 50/50. And Ive been a coffeee beano for a good 15 yrs, albeit a la french press or Mokapot.

French and Moka are a world of difference to espresso, almost like a totally different drink. In my opinion you only start to understand coffee when you get into espresso and even then it takes a long time and a lot of practice/trial and error.

 

In a fancy-pnts grinder it'd be 50/50 too.. Its just that the std of both would be (slightly) higher (and therefore not in any way of interest to me at all in this scenario).

But by blindly refusing to accept what everyone else is telling you even though we've all been through the same thought process as you seems a bit stubborn. Everyone thinks, "Ahhh, it'll be ok with this equipment I've already got" then soon realises, "Oh, maybe it won't" pretty soon.

 

Sorry but simple logic states this has to be true.

Your logic is flawed. You're assuming that both coffees are giving all they can give whereas in reality your super market pre-ground is probably already topped out where as you can get sooo much more from decent fresh coffee.

 

If you've compared 2 different fresh coffees at some point and can't tell the difference it probably just means you've been doing both an injustice (either that or they're both just too similar).

 

Either way, if you're happy then that's fine. The thing that worries me is all this talk of "My £20 grinder if fine for espresso" yet everything you're telling us either means it's quite simply not or you can't tell the difference between good coffee and bad anyway. No offense meant and sorry if it did offend. Everyone's on a journey, it's just you don't realise that you're only at the start of yours :D

Rocket Appartamento | Mahlkonig Vario | 58mm Rocket tamper | AeroPress | VST 18g basket | HappyDonkey Bottomless PortaFilter

Link to post
Share on other sites

As a new(ish) espresso home user I can say whole heartedly that it's your grinder. Had a blade grinder that I could get to an espresso grind and it worked no worries, I was happy as I was getting similar results to Starbucks, then I realised what real espresso should be like.

Quickly bought a second hand MC2 and amazed at the difference, new machine and I'm in heaven. Even as a newbie I can tell the differences between beans/roasts and my wife with a poor sense of taste can easily tell me when I try another bean, there was no chance before we got our new grinder & machine. I understand you have a good machine so I have to agree with what's being said, new grinder will make the world of difference.

There is no real way to avoid it but some expense is needed in the quest of good espresso, how much expense depends on how far your willing to go. If your happy at the mo, superb but it sounds like your not so search the for sale ads and buy a cheaper grinder, if it makes no difference for you ( and I'd eat my hat if it didn't) then you sell it on and loose nothing.

Anyways that's my rambling over

Link to post
Share on other sites

You're not reading/ listening to a word Im saying, but merely making common assumptions and misquoting me. I said a better grinder -will- no doubt make a better cup.. and you lift 'BUT they all taste ~ the same: a better grinder cannot make them taste different' completely out of context in order to satisfy a rather laboured point now, one which has absolutely no bearing on what Im talking about.

 

 

Ive been a coffee nut for 15yrs, I can taste when a bean is fresh easily, I can taste the minutiae of notes to flavours from one bean to another (so my taste buds are fine thanks) in a french press, or mokapot that is.. but not in my gaggia. That's not to say it makes an inferior coffee to these, far from it, it makes a far better shot no question.. and if I make a shot from a stale pre-ground bag and its comparable to fresh Monmouth beans/ absolute parity/ then Im sorry but the Gaggia Classic aint much kop if you want to explore the coffee you use with it. A bit like a flashy car with the safety buttons.. undoubtadly a better car than my old golf, but is not showing the potential of the car until its boring buttons ae turned off and the car comes alive. My m'pot was a mx5 all corners experienced.. the gaggia is like a big fat bmw undoubtadly a 'better car' but each corner feels the same.

Link to post
Share on other sites

No I'm sorry but you're missing the point. You think that all coffee will be improved equally with a good grinder. It won't! I'm saying that good coffee will be improved more (much more) with a good grinder whereas you can't do much with crap coffee in the first place. We have a saying in software engineering that we use with customers all the time, "Crap in, crap out". :D

 

If you're not tasting the difference when you make good coffee you're not doing it right. End of. Especially, as you point out, that your taste buds are obviously fine as you can taste differences using other brew methods. Maybe you're just too used to drinking coffee using these other methods and have yet to develop a taste for espresso?

 

Anyway, I said a couple of posts ago it was going to be my last comment on the topic so this time I'm really out. As for misquoting you??? I actually used the quote button so that's pretty hard to do.

Rocket Appartamento | Mahlkonig Vario | 58mm Rocket tamper | AeroPress | VST 18g basket | HappyDonkey Bottomless PortaFilter

Link to post
Share on other sites

Soz if I have misinterpreted you, do you have access to another machine, whether it be a Gaggia or not, to compare shot taste? Have you experimented with differing bean weights, ie if overdosing it maybe consistently overpoweringly (is this even a word) bitter?

To use your analogy I understand exactly what you mean but remember you need to learn to drive the car/machine to get the best from it. Unsure if the Gaggia needs to be temperature surfed to get the best outa it, if there any small tips and tricks. Ultimately it may boil down to this machine just is the wrong one for you.

Just a quick thought, I assume your using a non pressurised basket? Newer Classics were supplied with these and frankly they are useless

Edited by Spooks
Link to post
Share on other sites

"Just a quick thought, I assume your using a non pressurised basket? Newer Classics were supplied with these and frankly they are useless"

 

Hi Spooks, the pressurised baskets in the Classic may not be ideal, but they don't make all coffee taste the same.

 

Sea Chief, as you seem content with your £20 electric grinder, why not fork out for a hand burr grinder (like a Porlex tall, try 2nd & 3rd clicks from "lock up"), to test the water? Yes, for 1st cup of the day/when you're in a hurry it's a bit of a faff (you can still use the "coptor blade" at these times)....but when time is less of an issue you might try hand ground. This may help point you in the direction of what you feel the necessary next step may be.

“Coffee evokes the most insane reactions in people”, Rene Redzepi.

 

https://markwjburness.wordpress.com/

Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

  • About
    Coffee Forums UK is the UK's premier coffee forum Started in June 2008 by Glenn Watson, we now have more than 24000 mainly UK based members, and welcome more than 3000 members and visitors from around the world each day! With strategic investment and digital expertise from the Jackson Lockhart team (Tait Pollack and Adam Bateman), we are taking Coffee Forums UK to the next level, and are delighted to share the journey with you.

    New Members:
    We are often referred to as the friendliest forum on the web and we look forward to welcoming you onboard. Please read our Terms of Use. We stick by them, existing members please familiarise yourselves with them.

    Advertising

    Coffee Forums Media Kit

    Click Here To Buy Advertising Space 
    £100 p/m when paid yearly, up-to: 690000 banner impressions per month!

     

    coffee-subscription-mini.png

    Become a friend of CFUK
    Buy Us A Monthly Coffee (massive thank you!) 

     

    Donate / Sponsor

    Click Here To Donate (big thank you!)

    Get Your Supporter Badge Today (per year)

    image.png



    Coffee Forums Logo
     

×
×
  • Create New...