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Help please - Duo Temp Pro lost pump power

19K views 65 replies 10 participants last post by  embecmom2 
#1 ·
Hi folks, this is my first time posting in this community, here goes...

Had my trusty DTP for 3.5 years (so out of warranty) and absolutely love the machine. However it has suddenly lost a lot of pump power and the pump noise has gone from the usual deep sound (once it properly kicks in a few seconds into pulling the shot) to more of a high pitched sound - perhaps resembling a little mo-ped scooter or single engine aeroplane. Water still flowing and it just about pulls a shot of espresso but easily gets choked and it tastes awful. Something definitely not right.

Firstly - does this problem sound familiar to other DTP/Sage users?

Secondly - I'm debating whether to try and fix (either myself if I can get spare parts or sending to Sage?) or just buy a straight out replacement. Number of retailers currently have them at £249 which is pretty tempting but think I'd rather try the 'fix' option first - both for economic and environmental reasons - assuming users here have suggestions of the likely problem and I could source replacement parts.

Other info - No water leaking from bottom. I live in a hard water area and descale every 2-3 months. Use the machine on average twice a day.

Hope everyone safe in these unsettling times, and thanks in advance for any advice out there. Need my daily espresso hit more than ever during lockdown!

Chris B
 
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#2 ·
I'd pull it apart and have a look. WARNING THOUGH - dealing with scalding steam and boiling water and mains voltages here, so if you aren't comfortable get someone who is to help you - you can seriously injure yourself or even die! And definitely at least unplug it and wait until it cools down before doing anything!

That said it does sound like the pump is faulty (or less likely a pipe or a seal is loose or some such) - which isn't an expensive or particularly difficult repair on other Sage machines I've worked on.

I've never pulled apart a DTP - I have almost completely stripped a couple of Oracles and Dual Boilers which I imagine are not dissimilar if a little more involved.

From what I've seen the Sage machines use Ulka pumps which are easily available, not expensive (10-25£) and not super hard to swap out.

How technically minded are you?
 
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#3 ·
Please don't stress. Don't send to Sage. Order a new pump. Ulka ep5 for around 13 pounds on Ebay. Easy to fit. Bob should be your uncle. If not you haven't lost much.

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk
 
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#4 ·
Thank you so much for the speedy replies @Kannan and @M_H_S - I'm definitely keen to try and fix myself before resorting to a new purchase - especially given the components aren't too ££s. I'm not super techy but willing to give it a try as nothing to lose (safety warnings noted!).

Is it common for the pumps to suddenly go faulty? Do you think it could be anything else? (Eg valves?).

thanks!
 
#5 ·
There's a possibility it's the solenoid valve from what I've read elsewhere on the dtp but it doesn't sound like it as you are getting some flow - I would assume that the solenoid clogging up would be a more gradual thing (not necessarily though) - and yes again from what I've read and seen, pumps do go, they're mechanical and pretty much the main moving part, so like any mechanical moving part, subject to wear and tear... also the pump is a vibratory kind which means there are no gears, so what you are hearing is the up down motion of the pump which sounds like it's gotten faster hence the higher pitch - now that could be less resistance (ie nothing stopping the flow or no flow - which could be a leak or the solenoid passing through to the drop tray but you didn't mention any signs of a leak or drip tray filling) or it could be a broken spring in the pump (which therefore resists the pumps motion less). The winding of the pump doesn't seem to be gone as otherwise there'd be no pump noise at all.

There's loads out there on repairing Sage/Breville machines, you'll need a few basic tools and maybe some o-rings and cable ties if that's how the dtp is put together (the oracle and dual boiler use those - be happy to send you some of that stuff, to save you buying loads for one repair - pm me), I'd take loads of pics at loads of different angles to help you putting it all back together!
 
#8 ·
There's a possibility it's the solenoid valve from what I've read elsewhere on the dtp but it doesn't sound like it as you are getting some flow - I would assume that the solenoid clogging up would be a more gradual thing (not necessarily though) - and yes again from what I've read and seen, pumps do go, they're mechanical and pretty much the main moving part, so like any mechanical moving part, subject to wear and tear... also the pump is a vibratory kind which means there are no gears, so what you are hearing is the up down motion of the pump which sounds like it's gotten faster hence the higher pitch - now that could be less resistance (ie nothing stopping the flow or no flow - which could be a leak or the solenoid passing through to the drop tray but you didn't mention any signs of a leak or drip tray filling) or it could be a broken spring in the pump (which therefore resists the pumps motion less). The winding of the pump doesn't seem to be gone as otherwise there'd be no pump noise at all.

There's loads out there on repairing Sage/Breville machines, you'll need a few basic tools and maybe some o-rings and cable ties if that's how the dtp is put together (the oracle and dual boiler use those - be happy to send you some of that stuff, to save you buying loads for one repair - pm me), I'd take loads of pics at loads of different angles to help you putting it all back together!
Awesome, thanks so much. I've purchased an Ulka pump and going to give this a go once it arrives... Any idea what size o-rings might be required? I might try buy a set online. Otherwise, would be very happy to take you up on your kind offer @Kannan

Good shout on taking lots of pics as I disassemble. Any other general tips for replacing a pump on these machines?
 
#14 ·
So... quick update on my DTP machine fault.

Thought the new pump had finally arrived but opened the package to find they'd actually sent me an oven door seal pack instead!! 😂 Not ideal from Spares-2-go. I'm onto them to correct this.

However, whilst I wait for the right part, I did whip the cover off the machine and began taking a look inside - found white powdery residue in/around the pump area (see pics) and wondered if this is just normal when opening up these machines up and/or whether it gave any other clues re. the fault I've described in my original post?

Many thanks, Chris
 
#15 ·
So... quick update on my DTP machine fault.

Thought the new pump had finally arrived but opened the package to find they'd actually sent me an oven door seal pack instead!! 😂 Not ideal from Spares-2-go. I'm onto them to correct this.

However, whilst I wait for the right part, I did whip the cover off the machine and began taking a look inside - found white powdery residue in/around the pump area (see pics) and wondered if this is just normal when opening up these machines up and/or whether it gave any other clues re. the fault I've described in my original post?

Many thanks, Chris
Attaching the photos would prob help...

Hood Motor vehicle Electrical wiring Gas Auto part


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#16 · (Edited by Moderator)
That definitely looks like a leak of some sort to me, but from the top of the OPV... which may have damaged the pump over time... you can see water residue on the upper rubber bracket... are you using tap water btw?

You'll definitely need a new o ring on the top of that OPV by the looks of things - pull the clip out then remove the 4mm PTFE tube and see what the rubber o ring looks like...
 
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#17 ·
That definitely looks like a leak of some sort to me, but from the top of the OPV... which may have damaged the pump over time... you can see water residue on the upper rubber bracket... are you using tap water btw?

You'll definitely need a new o ring on the top of that OPV by the looks of things - pull the clip out then remove the 4mm PTFE tube and see what the rubber o ring looks like...
thanks @Kannan - so sounds like a leak and/or faulty pump from what you're saying. Will check the o-ring state tomorrow and report back.

Do you know what size o-rings I need to order please for these machines?

And answering your question re. water - yes, I do use tap water and live in a relatively hard water area (Bristol, UK). I also use the replaceable filters in the water tank. I'm aware some use bottled water in their machines - do you recommend this?

thanks!
 
#18 · (Edited by Moderator)
Scale from hard water is the enemy of all heated water appliances (however from what I've read the calcium and magnesium which cause water hardness do give some taste to the coffee, so not an entirely straightforward subject, but I really know very little about it) so yes, most people who are serious about coffee (and looking after their machines) won't use tap water in their machines. I personally use an Osmio Zero (see the "Group Buys" section of this forum).

As for the o ring, PM me and I'll try and stick some in the post for you (along with some small cable ties which you will also need) - there are only 2 sizes used (I forget which exactly off the top of my head) but I doubt you will ever need 10 or 20 or whatever size packs they come in and buying them from Sage seems to be a fortune!
 
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#19 ·
Hi, all great tips how to. I can also recommend to get some food grade silicon grease like this one FilterLogic CFL650 Silicone Grease/Lubricant 10g Tube for Coffee/Espresso Machine Seals gaskets portafilter https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B078S86H3F/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_tai_NcuOEbXHVZQKJ And apply some on the plastic tube and the new rubber seal, it will keep it in place and also acts as added sealant. It seems like hard water has caused some water leak over the pump and probably damaged the coil inside.
Regards
 
#20 ·
Hi, all great tips how to. I can also recommend to get some food grade silicon grease like this one FilterLogic CFL650 Silicone Grease/Lubricant 10g Tube for Coffee/Espresso Machine Seals gaskets portafilter https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B078S86H3F/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_tai_NcuOEbXHVZQKJ And apply some on the plastic tube and the new rubber seal, it will keep it in place and also acts as added sealant. It seems like hard water has caused some water leak over the pump and probably damaged the coil inside.
Regards
Thanks @Tonino - I'll add this to my shopping list as sounds very sensible to help the overall quality of the fix up job. Still waiting on a few components to be able to finish the task - namely the new pump itself and @Kannan is kindly posting me some replacement o-rings and cable ties (massive thanks for the generosity!).

thank you for the advice and link!
 
#21 ·
Hi all, just to wrap up this thread (hopefully) - turns out after some troubleshooting the OPV was faulty and spurting water out the top of it. Gone with a replacement OPV and seems to have done the trick for now. Not replaced the pump yet as still seems to be in working order so will keep hold of the Ulka for a rainy day if it does go.

Special thanks to @Kannan who's been mega helpful throughout - even sent me spare o-rings, cable ties and a trial OPV, not to mention jumped on a few video calls and messages to talk me through the tech steps! So grateful!

thanks also to @Tonino and @M_H_S for their input too, really appreciate it guys.

Very impressed with the responses to my first post in this community - some great folks out there.

cheers, Chris 👍🏼
 
#22 ·
Hi all, just to wrap up this thread (hopefully) - turns out after some troubleshooting the OPV was faulty and spurting water out the top of it. Gone with a replacement OPV and seems to have done the trick for now. Not replaced the pump yet as still seems to be in working order so will keep hold of the Ulka for a rainy day if it does go.

Special thanks to @Kannan who's been mega helpful throughout - even sent me spare o-rings, cable ties and a trial OPV, not to mention jumped on a few video calls and messages to talk me through the tech steps! So grateful!

thanks also to @Tonino and @M_H_S for their input too, really appreciate it guys.

Very impressed with the responses to my first post in this community - some great folks out there.

cheers, Chris [emoji1360]
Great. Just start making great coffee and let us know how it goes.

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk
 
#23 ·
Rather than starting a new thread I thought I would reply to this one as I have a similar issue.

I have a DTP, had it for a year and a half now. Used to use it at weekends but as I'm working from home now I use it everyday.

All was normal until today. I turned the dial and waited and the espresso just dripped out. Eventually I got 36 grams of espresso but it usually would take 30-35 seconds. This took almost a minute.

Did a backflush with the cleaning tablets and disc. Did a descale and then another backflush with disc and tablet.

Put in a brand new basket and still the same. Got to around 55 seconds. I'm guessing the pump has gone?
 
#24 · (Edited by Moderator)
HI @Weymouth Just so you know, it turns out that the problem with @benoit3000's machine was the OPV and not the pump in the end. It looked like a cracked or otherwise damaged receptacle for the 4mm ptfe tube... which meant that rather than the water arriving at the group head at pressure, it was just spraying all over the inside of the machine.

The only real way to tell is to pop the cover off, IF you are minded to do so. Just bear in mind, as I mentioned before, this is mains voltage, potentially scalding water and high pressure you are dealing with, so if you aren't comfortable doing this, then leave it to someone who is!
 
#25 ·
HI @Weymouth Just so you know, it turns out that the problem with @benoit3000's machine was the OPV and not the pump in the end. It looked like a cracked or otherwise damaged receptacle for the 4mm ptfe tube... which meant that rather than the water arriving at the group head at pressure, it was just spraying all over the inside of the machine.

The only real way to tell is to pop the cover off, IF you are minded to do so. Just bear in mind, as I mentioned before, this is mains voltage, potentially scalding water and high pressure you are dealing with, so if you aren't comfortable doing this, then leave it to someone who is!
Hi, thanks for that. I did remove just the cover and it all looks like new in there. I could remove the back too. What am I looking for if the valve/pump is faulty?
 
#26 ·
If there is nothing obviously leaking then it might well be the pump (could still be the OPV). Does it sound less noisy than before? Could you take a video by any chance?
 
#28 ·
Oh sorry before we delve down into possible hardware faults, did you change your beans/grinder/grind setting etc etc? Still could be a "user" error :)? 36g 30-35 seconds could still just be too fine a grind - and even then it isn't terrible in terms of timing...
 
#29 ·
That's why I know there is an issue as I have been using the same beans/grind size every day and all of a sudden it's not right. It's like it's choked up but I know it's not as I made that mistake while learning. It's like it's all working fine, the coffee comes out at a steady rate (very slow at first) and then after around 55 seconds I have my 36 grams.

One thing I did do on this occasion, I tamped I think a little too hard. The motta tamper level was a little low on the portafilter so I thought I had just choked it I poured that away. Then I tamped very soft just in case and had the same result. It's almost as if I damaged the pump by tamping too hard or maybe the pump was on the way out and this tipped it over the edge!

What I am going to do as it's a 5 minute job is remove the shower head and check this are for gunk.
 
#59 ·
Looks like some paint bubbling around what I guess is the hole that the hot water comes out of. Other than that it looks ok.

View attachment 39677
My machine has this bubbling too - can be replaced apparently. Called Sage last week (through to a team in Germany) and they are currently out of stock of the replacement part but should have it in next cpl of weeks... and only £3.50 + P&P so cheap to swap over 👍🏼
 
#35 ·
Actually looks and sounds ok... could measure the output liquid to make sure there's the right amount of water coming out, let me look up the volume/time for you... if that's fine then short of putting a pressure gauge on it (somehow) or replacing one at a time (opv then pump) there's no easy that I can think of to tell if the pump or opv are somehow faulty and not allowing enough pressure to get to the head when under load
 
#36 ·
Thanks for that. I just made a coffee and set the smart grinder pro to 22 (now off the scale of espresso on the display). I had been using 19. Took 40 seconds to get 36 grams.

I guess for now I will just grind coarse and at least I have some coffee to drink!
 
#38 ·
smart grinder pro to 22 (now off the scale of espresso on the display). I had been using 19
The SGP dial settings are pretty arbitrary - as in they aren't calibrated against each other - so one persons 19 might be another persons 25! You could try going even more coarse and see what happens? The DTP has a lot going for it actually (PID, good steam etc)... so it's really not a bad machine, the main gripe for most people about Sage generally is that you are locked into a proprietary system and they are primarily consumer machines rather than pro-sumer - the corollary of this being that you probably won't hand a Sage espresso machine down to your kids :)... how long have you had it?

Your next upgrade, assuming your DTP is ok, would be the grinder... (Niche, Eureka etc)... you will definitely be able to produce better coffee with a better grinder than the SGP.

Over and above that it really depends on what you drink, when, how often, what space you have, budget etc etc... it's quite subjective. But in terms of a "real" espresso machine (as in not bean-to-cup, auto froth etc), realistically the only Sage machine that I think is worth considering as an upgrade would be the Dual Boiler, there are plenty of other non-Sage options but everything has it's pros and cons...
 
#37 ·
Probably not the best place to ask but the reason I got the DTP was to see if I wanted to go down the route of making espresso. Now that I figured that out I may as well look for a machine that will last as long as possible and spend some more money. I'm happy with the coffee I produce so would it be worth buying a new machine or just keep fixing the one I have and then replacing it when it finally dies? Also what would be the next step - sage dual boiler/oracle/fracino?
 
#39 ·
ok so for testing the pump:

"The idea is to run the pump with no portafilter in place and measure the outflow over time. Usually, a long sample time is better, like 30 seconds. But 10 would suffice. Current internet theory suggests 250ml-300ml of water flow total in 30 seconds at 10 bar basic pump pressure. "

From home-barista but I'm sure I've seen it here somewhere too... Also could work it out but thought it would be quicker to quote for now.
 
#42 · (Edited by Moderator)
ok so for testing the pump:

"The idea is to run the pump with no portafilter in place and measure the outflow over time. Usually, a long sample time is better, like 30 seconds. But 10 would suffice. Current internet theory suggests 250ml-300ml of water flow total in 30 seconds at 10 bar basic pump pressure. "

From home-barista but I'm sure I've seen it here somewhere too... Also could work it out but thought it would be quicker to quote for now.
Ok nice round figures:

30 seconds = 200ml

45 seconds = 300ml

I thought it would be less than 100ml/15 seconds in the first 30 seconds due to the slower rate but unless the rate slows with time it looks negligible

So I would say there is an issue but not a complete failure which would concur to going from 35 seconds to 55 seconds to pull 36 grams

So it's like it's running at 7.5 bar and is meant to be 15?
 
#41 ·
Using bottled or preferably filtered water and back flushing regularly will make your machine last. Realistically you can get 10 years plus out of your Sage with moderate maintenance (the pumps, valves etc are mostly the same as many other machines). And conversely whatever machine you might buy as an alternative will suffer a similar fate if not looked after...

You might also consider an Osmio Zero...

As for the grinder, if you haven't tasted coffee been made from a decent grinder then you should at least try it before you decide what you have is fine, then you can decide if your palette can actually tell the difference, but my guess is you won't look back - but equally each to their own!
 
#43 · (Edited by Moderator)
So you would have to take the pre-infusion into account...

Measure and time from about 15 seconds onwards that way you can discount any pre-infusion time and see again - dual boiler is recommended to be set at 11.5 bar not sure about the DTP but would imagine same or similar...
 
#44 ·
So you would have to take the pre-infusion into account...

Measure and time from about 15 seconds onwards that way you can discount any pre-infusion time and see again - dual boiler is recommended to be set at 11.5 bar not sure about the DTP but would imagine same or similar...
That's why I ran it for 30 seconds and then 45 seconds (two separate runs) so that means after pre infusion it is running at 100ml per 15 seconds which is too slow.

I bought it from Lakeland so I can get a replacement or refund so I need to think if I want a refund towards a different machine. I'm guessing that if I went for a replacement now they wouldn't allow me to go for a refund a few months down the line.
 
#45 ·
Ahh sorry didn't catch that! Yeah sounds like it's running at 6/7 bar - still could be the OPV but whatever if it's under warranty then for sure get it sorted... honestly though if you are happy with the coffee the only other machines worth considering around this price point are the Gaggia Classic and maybe the Rancilio Silvia neither of which have PID or pre-infusion at this price point and will also suffer from tap water usage - but might last 25 years if well looked after...
 
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