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Dobbo

Bitter coffee

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Hi Guys n gals,

So having a wee bit of spare time on my hands at the minute, I’ve done the following upgrades to my Set up.

Mr Shades PID(Gaggia Classic)

Eureka Mignon mk2(Preciously iberital mc2)

Brass shower plate

IMS shower screen

a bloody good clean(which wasn’t as bad as I thought)
 

My biggest problem since is that the espresso is incredibly bitter, but when I switch back to the iberital, it’s a lot better, now I was on the understanding that the eureka was a step up in grinder, I’ve weighed 18g out but still the taste is almost unbearable.

any advice for a long time lurker?

thanks

Alex

 

 

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So you've changed grinder, presumably changed the grind size to something within approximately the right range, and your espresso is coming out bitter.

What steps have you taken to dial the coffee in using the new grinder? What adjustments have you made, what output are you extracting, what temperature is the PID set at, what beans are you using, etc?

Too many variables I'm afraid, need some more info!


   /\_/\ .。oO(Vesuvius, Niche Zero, V60)
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Can you tell us what you're output is in grams & shot times?


“Coffee evokes the most insane reactions in people”, Rene Redzepi.

 

https://markwjburness.wordpress.com/

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To maybe give some initial suggestions, try grinding coarser, lowering the ratio (1:1.5), and running a few grams through your grinder before grinding into the portafilter (it might be retaining more grounds)

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Thanks for your reply’s, after going through a load more beans, I’m still none the wiser.

I’ve got my grind to what I feel is good for espresso, still no good, tried coarser/hotter etc, still v bitter.

Got the gaggia set to 93 degrees

I'm measuring out 18g of beans.

I'm extracting 2oz, I’ve had it from 8secs to 34secs, all far to bitter.

I normally use a roaster local to me but ran out just as lockdown came in, used beans from CC as well, waiting for another delivery from them as I have exhausted all my beans experimenting yesterday.

What gets me is if I use my iberital again the taste is remarkably better, do you think there is a problem with the Mignon?

Alex

 

 

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Weigh out in g, you want to keep everything the same. I usually go for about 36g out from 18g.

Sent from my SNE-LX1 using Tapatalk


What's the point...it'll only change soon!

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Is there a big difference of the ground coffee between both grinders, appearance wise? How do you know it is the same size? When you use the tamper is the ground coffee "response" the same upon tamping it down?

Have you noticed differences in the brewing times, e.g. longer with the Iberital shorter with the Eureka at the same dosage?

If the Eureka is a brand new I wonder whether the burrs need to set in.


Nothing succeeds as planned.

 

ACS Vesuvius, Nuova Simonelli Apia I 1 gr, San Remo 1 gr., Bezzera BZ35e, Fracino Heavenly, Saeco Via Veneto Combi de Luxe, Mythos Plus Nuova Simonelli, Anfim Super Lusso, Cunill Space, Gene Cafe

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1 hour ago, Dobbo said:

Thanks for your reply’s, after going through a load more beans, I’m still none the wiser.

I’ve got my grind to what I feel is good for espresso, still no good, tried coarser/hotter etc, still v bitter.

Got the gaggia set to 93 degrees

I'm measuring out 18g of beans.

I'm extracting 2oz, I’ve had it from 8secs to 34secs, all far to bitter.

I normally use a roaster local to me but ran out just as lockdown came in, used beans from CC as well, waiting for another delivery from them as I have exhausted all my beans experimenting yesterday.

What gets me is if I use my iberital again the taste is remarkably better, do you think there is a problem with the Mignon?

Alex

You mean you have 18.0g of beans in the PF before you tamp?

Forget "oz", you have scales use them. Hit the same target weight each time, without this your method is too open ended to be meaningful.

How many shots did you pull from 8 to 34s? 2, 4, 35? What are your notes from each shot?Are you sure that there is no usable setting in between these times?

 


“Coffee evokes the most insane reactions in people”, Rene Redzepi.

 

https://markwjburness.wordpress.com/

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Right, getting very frustrated now, having ran out of coffee and resisted buying supermarket, I eventually got delivery of my coffee from CC.

I've gone through 2 bags already and I can’t even bring myself to have a sip.

so my set up is as follows.

got what I think is a decent grind for espresso, just a bit finer than table salt

my PID is set at 93degrees

I measure out 18g of grounds

I’m pulling anything from 30g to 36g

Shot times have ranged from 8 seconds to 33 seconds

I’ve got 18g in the pf 

I've tried slightly coarser and finer grinds, tampering harder and softer, I’m at the point were I’m selling the lot and buying a pod machine, this all seems to have been since I did the PID upgrade and new eureka.

sick as a chip

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Is the grind coming out clumpy? How are you de clumping? My mignon is super clumpy now I have gone finer also I have been trying to get consistency I’m using a 9ish bar pressure unpressurised basket 18g In the basket my time still seem too short and they look nice but don’t taste great now the ground coffee I bough from a local shop was probably my best results I have home ground the same beans, bough more beans from same roaster, now have bags from a different but recommend  roaster to try and make something nice to drink ( I don’t class high street costa etc as nice to drink) 

 

anyone offering barista lessons by zoom?

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1 hour ago, Dobbo said:

Right, getting very frustrated now, having ran out of coffee and resisted buying supermarket, I eventually got delivery of my coffee from CC.

I've gone through 2 bags already and I can’t even bring myself to have a sip.

so my set up is as follows.

got what I think is a decent grind for espresso, just a bit finer than table salt

my PID is set at 93degrees

I measure out 18g of grounds

I’m pulling anything from 30g to 36g

Shot times have ranged from 8 seconds to 33 seconds

I’ve got 18g in the pf 

I've tried slightly coarser and finer grinds, tampering harder and softer, I’m at the point were I’m selling the lot and buying a pod machine, this all seems to have been since I did the PID upgrade and new eureka.

sick as a chip

So, before you had the PID & Mignon, you could pull 18:30g (+/-3g) and the shots tasted good between 8 & 33s? This sounds doubtful.

Why did you not ask for help after 2 or 3 shots, rather than bags?

Don't tamp harder/softer, do it the same & level each time, just once after distributing in the basket.

Make a shot, just one. At the finer end of your settings. Tell us:

Grind setting

exact weight of ground coffee in the basket

Exact weight of drink in the cup, on scales.

How long you ran the pump for to get that drink.

Taste evaluation (nice, neither nice/nasty, nasty will do).

Make notes of these parameters in chronological order.

Don't make another shot until you have done this (by deduction, if you have tried everything & nothing has worked, what your trying to do is not possible...do you think that is likely?).

 


“Coffee evokes the most insane reactions in people”, Rene Redzepi.

 

https://markwjburness.wordpress.com/

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46 minutes ago, Dobbo said:

Right, getting very frustrated now, having ran out of coffee and resisted buying supermarket, I eventually got delivery of my coffee from CC.

I've gone through 2 bags already and I can’t even bring myself to have a sip.

so my set up is as follows.

got what I think is a decent grind for espresso, just a bit finer than table salt

my PID is set at 93degrees

I measure out 18g of grounds

I’m pulling anything from 30g to 36g

Shot times have ranged from 8 seconds to 33 seconds

I’ve got 18g in the pf 

I've tried slightly coarser and finer grinds, tampering harder and softer, I’m at the point were I’m selling the lot and buying a pod machine, this all seems to have been since I did the PID upgrade and new eureka.

sick as a chip

If you want any meaningful help at all you need to provide detailed information. People have given you a few tips already and they have apparently not worked so we need to know more about the process to see where things are going wrong so how about setting out some information people might be able to use. 

E.g. instead of "I pull from 30 to 36g in 8 to 33 seconds" how about being more specific.

What type of beans? Telling people you're using "beans" is a bit redundant. What are the tasting notes on the bag/website, what was the roast date, how dark are they, how do they smell, where do you store them when opened, what do you store them in?

18:36g - 30 seconds - Tasting Notes:   

18:36g - 25 seconds - Tasting Notes:

etc  etc

How fast is the flow? Does it start very slowly and then rapidly speed up or does it speed up gradually?

Example tasting notes:

Defects: Bitter, Ashy, Burned, Acrid, Salty, Hollow, Sour, Astringent, Carbon, Wood, Dirt -- Is it an aftertaste, does it linger and dry your mouth, or is it just a hint?

Acidic (what type of acid? tarte, sour, bright, fruity, winey etc).

Sweetness: Is it sugary, cloying, rich, syrupy?  

Mouthfeel: Grainy, Thick, Thin, Watery, Juicy, Viscous, Balanced

You don't have to use all categories but a description of some kind is necessary even if that description is just "horribly bitter". You might have notes of bitterness in an otherwise good shot which could indicate a grind that is very slightly too fine or a bit of chanelling. You might be grinding so fine to achieve your target ratio you're getting silt in the cup, which could be combined again with chanelling. You don't have to go into great detail but the difference between two shots might be acidity that goes from bright to fruity, a grainy mouth feel might become viscous etc and this helps define the changes you're making.

Right now you seem to be describing nothing but bitterness and shots that are undrinkable. I'd say you need to decrease your extraction but it is unlikely to be high so you're probably getting chanelling or silt.

What is your prep process? Do you tap the portafilter with your hand, tap it on the counter, use WDT, have a distribution tool? Do you weigh the portafilter when you've ground into it or do you just weigh the coffee before putting it into the grinder? Do you smash it into the group or do you put it in carefully so as not to disturb the puck? Is the basket overfilled, is there an impression from the shower screen? How big is your tamper? You should tamp with as much pressure as you can comfortably control, what's important is tamping evenly and doing it in a way that is approximately repeatable. Are you single dosing or running with a hopper, are you purging the grinder properly between grind changes?

 

 

 


ACS Minima (Beta) with Bianca Paddle -- Reskinned Ceado E8, Niche Zero --- Gene Cafe CBR101 with Dimmer Mod and Bean Mass Probe

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So from the beginning 

Heres the coffee I'm using and the grind I think is somewhere near for esspresso.

20200505_120149.jpg

20200430_141107.jpg

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26 minutes ago, Dobbo said:

So from the beginning 

Heres the coffee I'm using and the grind I think is somewhere near for esspresso.

20200505_120149.jpg

20200430_141107.jpg

OK, so what were the shot parameters? Did it taste like the notes on the bag & if not, can describe how it was different? Was it really nasty, a bit nasty, neither nasty nor nice, a bit nice, very nice?


“Coffee evokes the most insane reactions in people”, Rene Redzepi.

 

https://markwjburness.wordpress.com/

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4 hours ago, MWJB said:

OK, so what were the shot parameters? Did it taste like the notes on the bag & if not, can describe how it was different? Was it really nasty, a bit nasty, neither nasty nor nice, a bit nice, very nice?

So I've been measuring out 18g in the portafilfter(naked, 20g basket from memory) and pulling about 30-36g.

Gaggia is set at 93 degrees, I've had a variety of shot lengths, even when I do get close to the 30sec mark, still the same taste.

Taste was litterally unbearable, never have I ever made a coffee that was that bad(to me anyway) to my untrained tastebuds it was bitter

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1 minute ago, Dobbo said:

So I've been measuring out 18g in the portafilfter(naked, 20g basket from memory) and pulling about 30-36g.

Gaggia is set at 93 degrees, I've had a variety of shot lengths, even when I do get close to the 30sec mark, still the same taste.

Taste was litterally unbearable, never have I ever made a coffee that was that bad(to me anyway) to my untrained tastebuds it was bitter

Grinder setting?

If the basket is 20g, why not start with 20g & adjust from there if necessary?

So shall we say this one was 33g?

How many seconds was it 27 28, 32? What is the "30 second mark"? 

Let's deal with this one shot at a time.


“Coffee evokes the most insane reactions in people”, Rene Redzepi.

 

https://markwjburness.wordpress.com/

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18 minutes ago, MWJB said:

Grinder setting?

If the basket is 20g, why not start with 20g & adjust from there if necessary?

So shall we say this one was 33g?

How many seconds was it 27 28, 32? What is the "30 second mark"? 

Let's deal with this one shot at a time.

Setting of the Mignon grinder is hard to tell, but as it stands its on 5, but don't know how you could gauge is thats right or wrong.

But ill start with 20g, pull a shot of 36g.

Grind will be the same as what the 2nd pic is(assuming its correct)

I thought that 30sec was a good shot time, from flicking the switch to finish, am I wrong?

 

 

 

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Have you tried using a coffee roasted with espresso in mind? Sorry if that sounds like a daft question, but I can’t be the only one who’s tried to make espresso with a filter roast and ended up with something undrinkable and sour.

 

Andy


EK43S-Coffee Burrs-V60-RokGC-Stagg EKG-Osmio Zero

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10 minutes ago, Dobbo said:

Setting of the Mignon grinder is hard to tell, but as it stands its on 5, but don't know how you could gauge is thats right or wrong.

But ill start with 20g, pull a shot of 36g.

Grind will be the same as what the 2nd pic is(assuming its correct)

I thought that 30sec was a good shot time, from flicking the switch to finish, am I wrong?

 

 

 

We can't tell anything from a picture of your grind.

The right grind & shot time would give a cup representative of the notes, it doesn't matter what they are as long as that happens (but they will allow us to establish 'square one' to work from).


“Coffee evokes the most insane reactions in people”, Rene Redzepi.

 

https://markwjburness.wordpress.com/

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Posted (edited)

Might be worth zeroing the grinder mine is currently set 3/4 of a turn from the zero point. Zero is where the burrs touch.

so to zero unplug the grinder and take hopper off then use fingers to gently turn the brass nut by hand until you feel it touch the upper burr. That’s zero, now you have a reference point for the grind. 
 

wont make coffee taste better but will let you move forwards.......

now you can try and fine tune to the suggested timings (I am not hitting this golden 30sec for 36g timing either) 

The espresso isn’t great but make a great vanilla latte for missus and a decent cappuccino for me..... (I just think I don’t like espresso)

 

also make sure to stir before tasting 🤷‍♂️

Edited by HDAV

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MWJB's patience is just incredible.

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ACS Minima (Beta) with Bianca Paddle -- Reskinned Ceado E8, Niche Zero --- Gene Cafe CBR101 with Dimmer Mod and Bean Mass Probe

WATER CALCULATOR

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How is your mignon setup? 
Have you aligned the burrs? 
And are you using a half to quarter full hopper?

You mention setting 5. Now unless yours is set up very differently in terms of settings to mine but my burrs touch at -0.5 (after aligning them, they were woefully out of alignment and were touching at +1.5)

My grind settings are between settings 1 and 2 for espresso, 5 for pour over and 1 (1 full turn for French press) 

So 5 sounds very high! 
You also must use the mignon with a 1/4 hopper and purge the beans each time you use it as the retention isn’t great 


La Pavoni Europiccola - Mignon Manuale - La Pavoni Zip - Gaggia Classic - Nanopresso - Osmio Zero

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Have you tried using a coffee roasted with espresso in mind? Sorry if that sounds like a daft question, but I can’t be the only one who’s tried to make espresso with a filter roast and ended up with something undrinkable and sour.
 
Andy

That’s a great question. Anyway I think, more of this high altitudes coffees taste like a lemon in expresso. Maybe you can try some other origins...
Good luck!!

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