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tohenk2

Vesuvius stopped after sizzle

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Yesterday I got a lot of water in the drip tray.

In the afternoon I heard something - at first I thought It was water - and started filming.

While doing so I changed my opinion about the noise, it sounded more like sparks.

This realization came to late!

Before I flipped the switch the Vesuvius went dark. I pulled the cord and left it alone. I will open it up today and will try to see if there is something to salvage ...

At least there were still no puddles under the machine today.

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Posted (edited)

Perhaps when there is more information.

The only clues so far are lots of water in the drip tray. This has to come from the brew boiler as it's the only thing that puts water in the drip tray from either expansion valve or group. This can happen in 4 ways and does depend on how fast it happened whether it was visibly leaking or person came back and noticed a lot of water in drip tray but wasn't sure when it happened.

  1. 1. Faulty expansion valve (unlikely)
  2. Faulty group upper valve or something caught under valve seat (fairly unlikely, but possible)
  3. Lever left up or not properly lowered (more likely than the other two)
  4. Drip tray wasn't emptied as often as person thought (more likely than the first two)

Hear something that was water but possibly sparks?  Could be brew boiler heating element exposed, thermal probe at top of boiler can't read temperature properly so element comes on, eventually, brew boiler water boils (makes funny sounds)  limit stat trips. Possibly electrical sound was heating element tip blowing? Vesuvius went dark, possibly because fuse in onboard mains receptacle blew, unless on RCD and probably that would trip before fuse could blow, all due to heating element shorting to earth.

Perhaps drip tray in water is a red herring and person had not emptied as often as they thought so it's nothing I typed above and it's something different entirely.

 

Quote

At least there were no puddles under the machine today

A slightly confusing comment, were there puddles under the machine recently, is it related to the fault? Or just a side comment referring to another event at some time in the past?

 

It could be so many things................................Once machine is opened and what remains of the machine that can be salvaged is identified, and some testing done, more clues will emerge.

Edited by DavecUK

 My reviews at https://coffeeequipmentreviews.wordpress.com/ - Various Machines and grinders, Amazon Dalian 1kg Drum Roaster: YouTube channel at https://tinyurl.com/szhgxzl .......

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Posted (edited)

Thanks for the replies!

 

1) possible, the rubber might be getting old after 5 years? I read something about Viton replacements?

2) last time I checked the group the metal bits (cam and the camshaft tappets?) were worn, but I did not have the original parts as spares - would generic parts do?

3) The lever arm was not left up. It swings up (see 2), but does not allow water trough the grouphead as far as I know. Because I do not like the swing I place something in front of the lever. It was in the "down" position when this happened.

4) drip tray could indeed be a red herring. It was emptied, and I do this quite often (I don't like the stuff left on the bottom of the tray, so I do this regularly. At least once, sometimes twice a day).

 

By now I have opened up the machine. The 240V fuse, powerinlet and cord were completely fried. I was lucky that it didn't start a fire. I didn't see anything wrong with the powerswitch, but I don't trust it completely.

I put in a new powerinlet (ECM, it falls out, but will do the job for now), a new cord and I used the spare fuse. The Vesuvius came on, brought the boilers to my preset temp. The pump worked.

But after 15 minutes or so the machine died again. this time it was only the fuse. So the underlying problem is still to be found, I will check your suggestions. Is the correct fuse a "L 6A 250V"?

 

As to the "still no puddles under the machine today" - No, no reference to earlier leakage. I was just afraid I might see it. The Vesuvius did not ever leak/still does not leak.

 

I contacted Paolo by telephone - he is ok. (more important to me than the machine! but it wouldn't feel good doing nothing about it... )

He asked me to put everything in an email and I'm sure he will look into it when the world gets more nomal again.

 

 

Edited by tohenk2

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Posted (edited)

L6A 250V fuse is not the right one, the V can draw 2.4kW so ideally a 10A or better still 13A fuse.

Group lever can only leak when it's up

Group seals could have gone but it's a bit early after only 5 years

Why were the pins and cam worn, camshaft in excess of 15 years as it's harder than the pins, the pins shouldn;t be worn if you lubricate after backflushing, not until 10 years+ All my group parts are still in perfect condition, although I could change my group spindle seals soon

The power inlet cords do seem to be a weak point, i think it's because of the use of a straight plug in cord,  which is under pressure all the time. I purchased a right angle connector for mine. This takes the lateral pressure off the cord. Mines OK, I open the lid and check my machine twice per year. Buy a right angle connector....or an entire lead....search for a 1m one the link is for 2m

https://www.amazon.co.uk/C2G-degree-IEC320C13R-BS1363-Kettle-Black/dp/B002DWA8IW/ref=sr_1_4?keywords=right+angle+kettle+connector&qid=1584957856&sr=8-4

Edited by DavecUK

 My reviews at https://coffeeequipmentreviews.wordpress.com/ - Various Machines and grinders, Amazon Dalian 1kg Drum Roaster: YouTube channel at https://tinyurl.com/szhgxzl .......

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Change all the port out for a new one as well, did you do that?


SAGE IS NOT A UPGRADE

 

 

:)

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On 23/03/2020 at 12:44, Jony said:

Change all the port out for a new one as well, did you do that?

I changed the cord, the powerinlet, fuse (with the spare) and the spade-connector that was melted.

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On 23/03/2020 at 11:07, DavecUK said:

L6A 250V fuse is not the right one, the V can draw 2.4kW so ideally a 10A or better still 13A fuse.

Group lever can only leak when it's up

Group seals could have gone but it's a bit early after only 5 years

Why were the pins and cam worn, camshaft in excess of 15 years as it's harder than the pins, the pins shouldn;t be worn if you lubricate after backflushing, not until 10 years+ All my group parts are still in perfect condition, although I could change my group spindle seals soon

The power inlet cords do seem to be a weak point, i think it's because of the use of a straight plug in cord,  which is under pressure all the time. I purchased a right angle connector for mine. This takes the lateral pressure off the cord. Mines OK, I open the lid and check my machine twice per year. Buy a right angle connector....or an entire lead....search for a 1m one the link is for 2m

https://www.amazon.co.uk/C2G-degree-IEC320C13R-BS1363-Kettle-Black/dp/B002DWA8IW/ref=sr_1_4?keywords=right+angle+kettle+connector&qid=1584957856&sr=8-4

ok thanks. I hope that explains why the second fuse blew. I thought that was on the (factory issue) replacement fuse, but the lettering was pretty shallow, even under a magnifying glass.

The first fuse was - well, fused in the powerinlet. What was left of it.

 

Once again, thanks for the reply and effort to help.

 

The group doesn't leak as far as I know. The lever popping up is annoying to me, but it does not pop up that much that there is fresh water coming through the E61 grouphead in the portafilter. I think. (Might block the outlet.)

 

Group seals - do you mean the seals of the boilers? Or the one in the OPV in front?

 

The rubbers inside the E61 were hard after a year or two. The rubber seal of the E61 portafilter  was hard after a year and is replaced by a teflon ring by Cafatek. That is still fine after 4 years.

 

I can't tell you why the cam and pins were worn. I do not backflush often. I clean the E61 and lubricate the spindle and cam and pins maybe once every year and a half (and then I put new spindle seals in as well - jus as a precaution. The things are inexpensive.) But I guess the lubrication was not regular enough then. Or the brass of my cam/pins is softer? (I have RVS bolts in my rooftop railing - all but two are fine. Why those 2 are not? No idea. Luck of the draw I guess.) The pins and cam of my now handed down and 20 years old Bezerra Galatea Domus are fine.

 

My 240V cord has a molded right angle connector as well. Both the old one and the new one. Thanks for the link!

 

 

 

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I mean the valve seals in the E61 group itself they have a top valve, prefinfusion valve (disabled in the V) and vent valve. The cam isn't worn it's ground that way (photo?), it's much harder than the cam followers (pins). Lubricating every year and a half isn't often enough. I have no idea about the reference to RVS bolts?. Perhaps the Galatea is fine because the pins are harder, perhaps the group sucks up more Coffee/oils in that area, perhaps it has weaker springs internally and less pressutre....I have no idea?

The lever popping into the netural position could be due to pin wear, but that in itself won't push the top group valve open or do anything as there will be no pressure on the top group valve or vent valve?

The Expansion Valve (OPV) perhaps is scaled, or something under the seat, but that would cause a flow into the tray under pressure e.g. when running 9 bar against a blind filter. Is it doing that?

E61 group seal is usually hard after a year...unless they are of certain materials. What other rubbers are you talking about that were hard after a year or so (the ones in the valves are good for 7+ years)?

Your cam won't look like the one in the photos and you won'te have a prefinfusion spring fitted.

http://coffeetimex.wikidot.com/e61-group-servicing

 

If the 240V power cord has a right angle, I don't know why your connector failed, unlucky I guess?


 My reviews at https://coffeeequipmentreviews.wordpress.com/ - Various Machines and grinders, Amazon Dalian 1kg Drum Roaster: YouTube channel at https://tinyurl.com/szhgxzl .......

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Thanks, the 10A fuse does the trick (the temporary ECM powerinlet is rated for 10A, so I didn’t want to start higher) and the V works again. More or less. All profiles are there and work correctly, temperature, pressure, steam etc are good and data on screen is correct.

There are a few issues left:

-Time and date are stuck

-Touchpad button most to the left down doesn’t respond- I need that one to set the time or choose profile 4 (already reseated the cables both in the controlbox and display)

- Filling the boiler sometimes times out (particularly when the temperature reaches 94°C or higher when the PID overshoots) (I have replaced the ODE BDA 14,5VA solenoid completely, it did not make a difference). Shutting down and let the complete machine cool down for a few minutes sort of resets the machine, and it fills the boiler again. I can hear a click when the solenoid works, and a sort of straining noise when it does not. 

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Sorry - copied and pasted some text and don’t know how to adjust to the normal text-size. 

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Sounds like a lot of faults. Perhaps display has gone bad, we're there any issues with it before. I don't believe they go bad often it's usually a bad connection. 

Filling the service boiler? Pump does have a timeout value, worth checking it's not simply timing out. Is this filling the service boiler from empty, is it for a set period, or just filling super slow?  Not really clear on what's happening. 

PID overshooting shouldn't affect the above, check the settings. 


 My reviews at https://coffeeequipmentreviews.wordpress.com/ - Various Machines and grinders, Amazon Dalian 1kg Drum Roaster: YouTube channel at https://tinyurl.com/szhgxzl .......

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10 hours ago, DavecUK said:

Sounds like a lot of faults. Perhaps display has gone bad, we're there any issues with it before. I don't believe they go bad often it's usually a bad connection. 

Filling the service boiler? Pump does have a timeout value, worth checking it's not simply timing out. Is this filling the service boiler from empty, is it for a set period, or just filling super slow?  Not really clear on what's happening. 

PID overshooting shouldn't affect the above, check the settings. 

Yes it seems like a lot doesn't it.  

The display pad left down was already faulty before the fuse blew, filling up time-outs happened as well for a week before. Time and date being stuck on thursday 10:54 is "new".

I already reseated the flat cords in control box and display but I do not have a spare around. (Are those cords something that can be found online?)

Could the time and date being "stuck" indicate I need a new battery on the Cigar board?

Yes I mean filling the service boiler. Sometimes after steaming the solenoid clicks and I can hear the pump engaging after that. Sometimes I can hear something what I think is the solenoid straining to open, no click. In that case the pump doesn't come on. If I switch the V off for a minute and then on again it will click and the pumps starts to fill up the boiler. (If I was slow or not around and the time-out already happened I have to switch off and on with the 240V because the time-out condition won't go away otherwise.)

I will try to check the PID settings.

 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, tohenk2 said:

Yes it seems like a lot doesn't it.  

1.The display pad left down was already faulty before the fuse blew, filling up time-outs happened as well for a week before. Time and date being stuck on thursday 10:54 is "new".

2. I already reseated the flat cords in control box and display but I do not have a spare around. (Are those cords something that can be found online?)

3. Could the time and date being "stuck" indicate I need a new battery on the Cigar board?

4. Yes I mean filling the service boiler. Sometimes after steaming the solenoid clicks and I can hear the pump engaging after that. Sometimes I can hear something what I think is the solenoid straining to open, no click. In that case the pump doesn't come on. If I switch the V off for a minute and then on again it will click and the pumps starts to fill up the boiler. (If I was slow or not around and the time-out already happened I have to switch off and on with the 240V because the time-out condition won't go away otherwise.)

I will try to check the PID settings.

 

I guess because there are so many things it's tricky for me to actually have a handle on what's going on and questioning gradually reveals more information (which many be relevant, or may not be). Trouble is I don't know all the questions to ask as I don't know what you're seeing or the sort of methodical diagnostics you have done. As each new fact is revealed it sends me down a different line of thinking. I think you need to sit with pen and paper, not down all the faults, issues and observations and when. Then logically work through what it can't be....and what doesn't make sense. Checking an error is truly what you think it is and happens when you think it does. Intermittent errors are usually going to be down to a bad connection, or something mechanical blocking/sticking. Try to see which errors are linked and which are not. Also you say you replaced a solenoid, well it's highly unlikely you got a brand new fault solenoid, big clue that the solenoid probably isn't the problem!

 

1. OK so it's not related to the fuse, could just be faulty, hope not because they are an expensive Gicar Item (considering what they are).  USA price here, liable to be a bit higher than EU price, obviously board is same whether 100V machine or 230V machine. https://www.1st-line.com/buy/gicar-display-board-8-8-74-04g-110v-ambientespresso-vesuvius/

Time and date being stuck, can you explain...do they not change, can you not change them, or does it reset to that each time you switch the machine on? The battery simply maintains an RTC on board the chip, should the machine be unplugged from the mains (and I think even switched off at the machines dual pole power switch). If the battery was bad the chip would simply default to the starting date value and start counting time from there. e.g. if the starting value was 1/1/2000, 0:00, then it would default to that each time. Doesn't sound like it's doing that. The battery serves no other function at all than maintenance of the RTC and has an approximate 10+ year life, although if the machine is without power and not using its internal timer...then it's likely to run down faster!

Might be that name thing people were on about, change the name of the machine or something, I don't have any issue like that?

2. If you have a box of 10 year old plus computer bits you might well find a cable I don't know if this photo helps

t_TvqzPG2ixTRF-jKIWdrWRe4fbZhM_Oo9ulFopE

 

3. Covered in point 1

4. make sure it's actually the boiler fill solenoid opening and not a different one....e.g. water tank fill solenoid, default time out for that was 100s. Check switch position on bottom if not plumbed, if plumbed, perhaps it's that, or simply a fault in that switch? Is it happening coincidentally when the internal tank gets close to requiring refilling?

 

P.S. Block letters are for emphasis, not shouting....

Edited by DavecUK

 My reviews at https://coffeeequipmentreviews.wordpress.com/ - Various Machines and grinders, Amazon Dalian 1kg Drum Roaster: YouTube channel at https://tinyurl.com/szhgxzl .......

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53 minutes ago, DavecUK said:

Time and date being stuck, can you explain...do they not change, can you not change them, or does it reset to that each time you switch the machine on? The battery simply maintains an RTC on board the chip, should the machine be unplugged from the mains (and I think even switched off at the machines dual pole power switch). If the battery was bad the chip would simply default to the starting date value and start counting time from there. e.g. if the starting value was 1/1/2000, 0:00, then it would default to that each time. Doesn't sound like it's doing that. The battery serves no other function at all than maintenance of the RTC and has an approximate 10+ year life, although if the machine is without power and not using its internal timer...then it's likely to run down faster!

Might be that name thing people were on about, change the name of the machine or something, I don't have any issue like that?

2. If you have a box of 10 year old plus computer bits you might well find a cable I don't know if this photo helps

3. Covered in point 1

4. make sure it's actually the boiler fill solenoid opening and not a different one....e.g. water tank fill solenoid, default time out for that was 100s. Check switch position on bottom if not plumbed, if plumbed, perhaps it's that, or simply a fault in that switch? Is it happening coincidentally when the internal tank gets close to requiring refilling?

 

P.S. Block letters are for emphasis, not shouting....

I understand. Different problems, maybe related, maybe not. Not having the machine up close is a challenge. My error seeking is probably erratic, also because of the multiple problems. Communicating this way has limitations - but the answers are helpfull!

1) The time and date do not change. At all. It says 10:54 Thursday now for a few days. All other data, like profile, temperature, pressure etc. does change and is correctly displayed.

And no, because the touch button left down is needed to enter the date and time settings I can not even try to alter it.

Oh the name issue! I will go look what my machine is called.

2) uh. might have if my wife hasn't cleared it - the photo helps! I don't remember the labels on my display. Hmm. I forgot to reseat the RS232 cable. Will try that as well.

4)plumbed, and filling up nicely. It does fill a bit late for my taste, but it never runs dry. (waterlevel might be around 1/4- before it fills to 1/2+). I filled up the watertank to full capacity to test, and it happened as well. (timeout filling up)

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Posted (edited)

Duh. When trying I realized that I can't enter the special menu as well. 

I will switch to tank operated.

Edited by tohenk2

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