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Pro 600 vs options (inc Hx)


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On 10/01/2021 at 11:58, MediumRoastSteam said:

Personally, I’d avoid steaming and brewing at the same time with that configuration. Should be fine, though, but unless you have a thermometer on the e61 or a scace device to test you’ll never know. Brewing first, steaming afterwards should work well I think.

I’m considering a Sync as my next purchase but have read a few things like the point above re. not steaming and brewing at the same time. Still learning about E61s (/generally!) but isn’t one of the main advantages with a dual boiler set up to steam and brew at the same time? For a machine >£2k this surprises me? Or have I misunderstood? 
 

(also considering the Bianca as an alternative and trying to establish what the extra 400 quid gets me on a Sync) 

any thoughts welcome - thank you 

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Just now, benoit3000 said:

I’m considering a Sync as my next purchase but have read a few things like the point above re. not steaming and brewing at the same time. Still learning about E61s (/generally!) but isn’t one of the main advantages with a dual boiler set up to steam and brew at the same time? For a machine >£2k this surprises me? Or have I misunderstood? 
 

(also considering the Bianca as an alternative and trying to establish what the extra 400 quid gets me on a Sync) 

any thoughts welcome - thank you 

The machine has changes since. I used to own a Profitec 700, and as far as I know, the Synchronika was based on that machine. But that was the older model. I don't know about the new ones. There are plenty of owners here though.

There was someone here who went through the same thought process as you. Personally, the Bianca offers incredible value for money. I'm not sure about build quality of those machines these days, but in terms of functionality, the Bianca wins hands down.

 

Current: Lelit Elizabeth / Niche Zero / VST baskets / Distilled water + 100mg NaCO3/L

Previous: Gaggia Classic | Eureka Mignon | Rocket Cellini Evo | Profitec 700 | Profitec T-64 | Gene Cafe CBR-101 | Kinu M68 | Feldgrind 2 | La Pavoni Europiccola 2012

Also at: CoffeeTime Forum & Niche Zero Owners Group

 

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28 minutes ago, Zorkin said:

What does it offer on top of flow profiling to make it better than a pro 600 /700 ?

That alone as far as I know, and it's worth the while if that's your thing. 

It also warms up quicker, and has a bloom pre-infusion program. Also it has last shot protection, i.e.: the display will tell you the machine is about to run out of water and will allow you to finish your shot. The Pro-600 is inferior to the P-700 and cannot be compared to the Bianca as it's a totally different machine. (smaller boilers, vibe pump, etc).

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Current: Lelit Elizabeth / Niche Zero / VST baskets / Distilled water + 100mg NaCO3/L

Previous: Gaggia Classic | Eureka Mignon | Rocket Cellini Evo | Profitec 700 | Profitec T-64 | Gene Cafe CBR-101 | Kinu M68 | Feldgrind 2 | La Pavoni Europiccola 2012

Also at: CoffeeTime Forum & Niche Zero Owners Group

 

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1 hour ago, MediumRoastSteam said:

The machine has changes since. I used to own a Profitec 700, and as far as I know, the Synchronika was based on that machine. But that was the older model. I don't know about the new ones. There are plenty of owners here though.

There was someone here who went through the same thought process as you. Personally, the Bianca offers incredible value for money. I'm not sure about build quality of those machines these days, but in terms of functionality, the Bianca wins hands down.

 

Thanks @MediumRoastSteam - Never used flow profiling (coming from a sage duo temp at the moment so any of these machines will be a big step up for me) but having watched vids/read about it, it’s something I imagine getting into to explore different coffees more. 

Like you say, Bianca has a number of features built in and appears great value.

Whilst the ECM seem to have a superior reputation for build quality and I want to buy something that will last me 10+ years. However, I’m hesitant on the Sync as the flow control device appears an afterthought (perhaps to rival Bianca?) and not ‘designed in’ to the machine - worried they’ll bring out a new Sync (or new ECM model) in the next year or two making my purchase date. Read mixed reviews on the FCD for ECMs/Profitecs 

i’m also wondering if to buy the Sync now without FCD and hope they bring out a new improved version 

Not a bad problem to have deciding between these two machines and I’m sure each will be a huge step change from my Sage - but because it’s a lot of dollar I want to get it right. Seems there are small trade offs between each 

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1 hour ago, benoit3000 said:

Thanks @MediumRoastSteam - Never used flow profiling (coming from a sage duo temp at the moment so any of these machines will be a big step up for me) but having watched vids/read about it, it’s something I imagine getting into to explore different coffees more. 

Like you say, Bianca has a number of features built in and appears great value.

Whilst the ECM seem to have a superior reputation for build quality and I want to buy something that will last me 10+ years. However, I’m hesitant on the Sync as the flow control device appears an afterthought (perhaps to rival Bianca?) and not ‘designed in’ to the machine - worried they’ll bring out a new Sync (or new ECM model) in the next year or two making my purchase date. Read mixed reviews on the FCD for ECMs/Profitecs 

i’m also wondering if to buy the Sync now without FCD and hope they bring out a new improved version 

Not a bad problem to have deciding between these two machines and I’m sure each will be a huge step change from my Sage - but because it’s a lot of dollar I want to get it right. Seems there are small trade offs between each 

I never used flow profile either. I just quoted the feature. And as you say correctly, the Flow profile for the profitec / ecm is after thought. 

I don't think ECM or Profitec push the boat out very hard. They seem to be more traditional and stick to what they know. Lelit in the other hand seems to be leading innovation on that aspect bringing it to market quickly and at affordable prices. Look at the MaraX - first in its class, and likewise the Bianca, with all the innovations that no one thought about before. 

Like I said, the Pro-700, back in 2014 was an amazing machine. Boring, consistent, solid. I don't know about the Bianca. I do own a Lelit Elizabeth and I am very happy with it. If I had the choice, and that's me, between the Bianca and the Synchronika, and they were put in front of me and someone say: "Hey, you have to BUY one of them, which one do you want?" - My answer would be the Bianca, without a shadow of a doubt. I would then save the extra £400 or whatever and invest in a good grinder. the market and the offers we have now are quite different from what was available back in 2015. Lelit was not a very popular brand, not in the UK. Personally, right now, I don't think you can beat the value for money Lelit machines bring to the table. Nowadays, I do think Profitec and ECM are slightly overpriced, but, ultimately, you have to buy something that you'd be looking at and are happy with. There's no point you buying something you don't really want to. In the grand scheme of things, and specially if you want to keep something for the long run, £400 is not an awful lot given the amount you are already spending. £400 will be what will cost you to service and maintaining an average family car (excluding insurance), per year.

 

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Current: Lelit Elizabeth / Niche Zero / VST baskets / Distilled water + 100mg NaCO3/L

Previous: Gaggia Classic | Eureka Mignon | Rocket Cellini Evo | Profitec 700 | Profitec T-64 | Gene Cafe CBR-101 | Kinu M68 | Feldgrind 2 | La Pavoni Europiccola 2012

Also at: CoffeeTime Forum & Niche Zero Owners Group

 

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23 minutes ago, MediumRoastSteam said:

I never used flow profile either. I just quoted the feature. And as you say correctly, the Flow profile for the profitec / ecm is after thought. 

I don't think ECM or Profitec push the boat out very hard. They seem to be more traditional and stick to what they know. Lelit in the other hand seems to be leading innovation on that aspect bringing it to market quickly and at affordable prices. Look at the MaraX - first in its class, and likewise the Bianca, with all the innovations that no one thought about before. 

Like I said, the Pro-700, back in 2014 was an amazing machine. Boring, consistent, solid. I don't know about the Bianca. I do own a Lelit Elizabeth and I am very happy with it. If I had the choice, and that's me, between the Bianca and the Synchronika, and they were put in front of me and someone say: "Hey, you have to BUY one of them, which one do you want?" - My answer would be the Bianca, without a shadow of a doubt. I would then save the extra £400 or whatever and invest in a good grinder. the market and the offers we have now are quite different from what was available back in 2015. Lelit was not a very popular brand, not in the UK. Personally, right now, I don't think you can beat the value for money Lelit machines bring to the table. Nowadays, I do think Profitec and ECM are slightly overpriced, but, ultimately, you have to buy something that you'd be looking at and are happy with. There's no point you buying something you don't really want to. In the grand scheme of things, and specially if you want to keep something for the long run, £400 is not an awful lot given the amount you are already spending. £400 will be what will cost you to service and maintaining an average family car (excluding insurance), per year.

 

Thanks @MediumRoastSteam - Very helpful logic for my decision, a lot of the above resonates 

 

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I was in a quandary a couple of weeks ago about what machine to buy, Pro 600 or Bianca.

In the end chose the Bianca after some helping advice from peeps on here. ( There is a thread on it)

I’m so pleased with the machine, I’m a newbie to fancy coffee machines but for the money, the features, looks, and build quality make it a no brainer in my eyes. Can also be plumbed.

The LLC control for pre infusion / boiler control etc is so easy and intuitive to use.

Not sure why it is the price it is tbh.

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  • 3 weeks later...

@MediumRoastSteam You've provided some really helpful information/ advice here. 

I'm a way off buying a proper espresso machine, but doing a lot of research and one of the things I can't seem to find much information on is longevity. 

As you say, Lelit are very popular at the moment and it is obvious why, but with all the 'tech' in them in there more chance/ is it more likely they won't last? 

Whilst ECM seem more 'traditional' does simplicity mean there is more chance you'll get 10-20 years or of them? (Notwithstanding wear and tear etc) 

You have clearly owned a lot of different machines so might have a good view? 

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1 minute ago, SuffolkDoug said:

Whilst ECM seem more 'traditional' does simplicity mean there is more chance you'll get 10-20 years or of them? (Notwithstanding wear and tear etc) 

You have clearly owned a lot of different machines so might have a good view? 

It's tricky. I think they can all fail one way or another. if the PID fails your machine is down, if the talk solenoid valve fails your machine is down, if the pump fails same again. 

I'm am not so sure about the "quality" of Pro/ECM machines. there's been a few issues recently, from poor steam/hot water valves to rusty frames.

Bottom line from me is... Read review. re-read. Buy what you like and feel good about it. If you take care of them, keep them clean, put good quality water through, keep things dry, they will all last you a long time. 

My advice to you is buy from a reputable retailer who will be there for you should you need after sales care. 

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Current: Lelit Elizabeth / Niche Zero / VST baskets / Distilled water + 100mg NaCO3/L

Previous: Gaggia Classic | Eureka Mignon | Rocket Cellini Evo | Profitec 700 | Profitec T-64 | Gene Cafe CBR-101 | Kinu M68 | Feldgrind 2 | La Pavoni Europiccola 2012

Also at: CoffeeTime Forum & Niche Zero Owners Group

 

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  • 4 weeks later...

Sorry to jump in on this thread but sounds similar to my dilemma. When I first joined these forums I was fancying a dabble into the world of proper espresso and thinking of a £1k budget for grinder and machine. That went out the window fairly quickly lol. Pretty much decided on the Niche Zero for the grinder (assuming I can get one this side of Xmas) but having a hard time deciding on a machine. I really like the look of the Rocket Appartamento but I keep reading that HX machines are not great for consistent brewing temps. Then the Mara X pops up which is still HX but modern with better temp control so no need for cooling flushes. But then folks always say that Dual Boilers are better and for the sake of £300 or so am I better buying a DB first time rather than realise later on? I must admit I don't like the look of the Bianca's wooden handles and the backpack style water tank and its closing in on £2k which is crazy considering my initial budget. So I saw a few good reviews on the P600 and I do like the aesthetics and the attention to detail. What does the Bianca do over the P600 other than profiling and rotary pump over vibration (is rotary a lot better or just quieter)?

Also are there any drawbacks to a Dual Boiler over a HX (other than the additional cost) - someone mentioned harder to descale (I plan to run on bottled water from the start) - anything else? Does a dual boiler heat up quicker than a HX or is the time still limited by the E61 group?

Just for background I drink espresso / americano mostly (and hopefully more so when I can make a really nice ones and the odd cappuccino / flat white). The wife is mainly a tea drinker but does request the odd latte 1-2 times a week and I would like some decent steam power for guest drinks and do fancy dabbling with some latte art at some point.

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