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Should Big Ben chime to celebrate leaving?

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Brexiteers including the now PM also subverted the democratic process by voting several times against Theresa May's withdrawal agreement.

Published alongside the May deal was a report by her government comparing the economic cost of various forms of Brexit. None of them were favourable. But the deal now going through was 3 times more damaging in that report than May's deal. This wasn't project fear. It was an analysis published by the May's government not some think tank with an agenda.

The current government didn't follow the same approach. Not that it mattered. No one was listening by that point.

It predicted a 6.7% fall in GDP and 4% drop in real wage value coupled with staggering levels of government borrowing into the 2030's.

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Please expand on this line Mr B

4. The quite minority we’re voting alongside a lot of overtly racist people.

So which am I? One of the quite minority or a racist person. Am I not allowed to take a contrary position without being called a racist now? I daresay there were lies told by Leavers and Remainers, but at the end of the day, Leave won the argument and more than once. Hell hath no fury, like a scorned Remainer

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5 minutes ago, dfk41 said:

Please expand on this line Mr B

4. The quite minority we’re voting alongside a lot of overtly racist people.

So which am I? One of the quite minority or a racist person. Am I not allowed to take a contrary position without being called a racist now? I daresay there were lies told by Leavers and Remainers, but at the end of the day, Leave won the argument and more than once. Hell hath no fury, like a scorned Remainer

Many people who voted to leave aren’t racist but many of those who voted to leave did so because they are and unfortunately those that aren’t get tarred with the same brush.  My post is not labelling anyone it’s merely explaining why some people hold the views they do.

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Institutionalised folks can never see that there is life beyond the bubble in which they live. Hamsters are kept in cages and for good reason. Can you imagine hordes of them running round, standing for Parliament and the like. They will join that other most clever of animals, you know, the sheep, the ones who perch in trees........Harold if I recall.

We won, you lost, get over it.........the final whistle has gone, the fat lady has sung..........

Edited by dfk41

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4 minutes ago, Mr Binks said:

Many people who voted to leave aren’t racist but many of those who voted to leave did so because they are and unfortunately those that aren’t get tarred with the same brush.  My post is not labelling anyone it’s merely explaining why some people hold the views they do.

Thanks for clearing that up......you had me confused for a moment. Can you just explain to me then using that rationale, what your take on the Remain voters would be. In terms of bigots, zealots, liars etc etc.....!

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11 minutes ago, Mr Binks said:

Many people who voted to leave aren’t racist but many of those who voted to leave did so because they are and unfortunately those that aren’t get tarred with the same brush.  My post is not labelling anyone it’s merely explaining why some people hold the views they do.

Mr B, I hope you do not think I overstep the mark at times. If I do, it is only meant in fun......and if you have 4 minutes, to demonstrate then please view this

 

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Just now, dfk41 said:

Thanks for clearing that up......you had me confused for a moment. Can you just explain to me then using that rationale, what your take on the Remain voters would be. In terms of bigots, zealots, liars etc etc.....!

There is a pretty good mix of each on both sides.

 

The reality of politics is that there are those who will make there decisions based on their own informed beliefs and there are those who will blindly follow a politician regardless of how outrageous the misinformation they are spreading is, call it naivety or stupidity if you will but they are out there and there are a lot of them and politicians know this all to well. Which type of person do you think they target when hunting for votes?

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I suspect Jeff wears a nice smart Jacket and shirt and then does his videos in his underpants ;)

Edited by DavecUK

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5 minutes ago, dfk41 said:

Mr B, I hope you do not think I overstep the mark at times. If I do, it is only meant in fun......and if you have 4 minutes, to demonstrate then please view this

 

Nah, I’ve never thought that and I’ve got far to thick a skin to be too overly bothered.

 

I’m not signing your petition though and come the 31st I shall be sat at home not really giving a squirt.

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6 minutes ago, DavecUK said:

I suspect Jeff wears a nice smart Jacket and shirt and then does his videos in his underpants ;)

Wouldn’t we all if we could get away with it?

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I voted leave, I quite freely admit that and I don't regret it. The trouble is the government at the time was full of 'vegan butchers' which Boris got rid of when he formed his cabinet. David Cameron did the right thing in resigning when he lost the referendum, only to be replaced by someone who wanted to be like Thatcher IMHO.

Three and a half years later, millions of pounds spent, a forced recession and we are nowhere. The country is now being run by a blithering idiot, but what was the other options? People say Corbyn was hand in hand with terrorists, but fail to see that the Conservatives have been for the past government with the DUP who are backed by the UDA. The liberals main agenda was to scrap article 50 and bring us back into the grasps of the EU (who would then put us in the naughty corner so we didn't do it again and to be an example to those who may think about leaving). The green party want us all riding bicycles and hugging trees. 

I can't see the problem with leaving. We get our fishing waters back (which France doesn't like) so we can negotiate quotas on our own terms, as well as other industries like farming etc. I can't see the problem with free trade agreements either. The EU wants our stuff, we want theirs so what's the problem? To me it appears that once we leave and the EU isn't getting our money, then other members have to make up for it which is probably what they're so aggrieved about. We're so integrated in the EU though when most of our industries were sold off to European companies (and paid for by EU grants to those companies).

It's just sad that most of our industries have been destroyed and wiped off the map so they can't be rebuilt. The steel industry for example. Sheffield steel was one of the finest steels in the world alongside German Solingan and Swedish Eskilstuna. I'm sure in modern times no one will miss the coal mines, but was once a great industry. The shipyards have mostly, if not all gone.. Railways.. the list goes on.

Anyway, I'm sure there are those who disagree with some if not all of what I've said as these are my opinions. I just hope that Boris can make good since the majority have voted him in (not me, I didn't vote for him).

 

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This has been both a little fun and a little informative!

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3 hours ago, ajohn said:

LOL Like many things it isn't straight forwards and even worse than that in some ways. Politicians like numbers that sound good so economics can get "modified" to suite. Growth for instance can just be inflation, Financial easing turns into another from of currency devaluation. It isn't that hard to find how things are calculated and the variations. To go any further start with this bloke and get  "confused" about the various other people involved in the area and their ideas.

https://www.investopedia.com/terms/k/keynesianeconomics.asp

One thing that bloke is reckoned to have said is don't worry about imports as the exporters will finish up with lots of money and will invest where they sell. ;) That seems to work after a fashion. It's an example of why this area changes - can't do anything about the imports so they can't be considered.

Forgot - Project Fear is an excellent use of words intended to influence people. Fact really, no one can know what the outcome will be.

John

-

I can't tell whether you were criticising my position or not. But if you were, or if anybody has looked at it in other than a positive light then I have this to say:

Please tell me what else I'm meant to hang my hat on? I voted to remain in the European Union for one reason only: the burden of proof was on those looking to change the status quo and nobody could persuade me that leaving was better than remaining. Not one reason resonated with me, even to the extent it could be made out with evidence.

At the end of this month we leave the European Union; against my wishes, but inevitable in any event so that's besides the point. Still, nobody has fleshed out what it will actually look like for the UK. I could repeat what dozens of experts have said about the unsavoury position we are in, but that's irrelevant too, because it's where we are.

So, the best I can hope for, is that in a reasonable period of time - say, ten years - I will see the fruits of these labours and I will be happy with them. Or, perhaps, I'll at least see where we're heading and be happy with the general direction. Nobody should now be wasting breath trying to persuade anybody that things will be better or things will be worse. Effort should now be focused on action, and a great deal of it. 

If anybody expects more than that from me, or anybody else who wasn't keen on leaving in the first place, then I don't understand where they're coming from at all. A lot of people do not know what they don't know. That's a worrying position to be in. The sooner this is recognised by all politicians, the sooner I will be a lot happier with this whole scenario.

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53 minutes ago, Rhys said:

I voted leave, I quite freely admit that and I don't regret it. The trouble is the government at the time was full of 'vegan butchers' which Boris got rid of when he formed his cabinet. David Cameron did the right thing in resigning when he lost the referendum, only to be replaced by someone who wanted to be like Thatcher IMHO.

Three and a half years later, millions of pounds spent, a forced recession and we are nowhere. The country is now being run by a blithering idiot, but what was the other options? People say Corbyn was hand in hand with terrorists, but fail to see that the Conservatives have been for the past government with the DUP who are backed by the UDA. The liberals main agenda was to scrap article 50 and bring us back into the grasps of the EU (who would then put us in the naughty corner so we didn't do it again and to be an example to those who may think about leaving). The green party want us all riding bicycles and hugging trees. 

I can't see the problem with leaving. We get our fishing waters back (which France doesn't like) so we can negotiate quotas on our own terms, as well as other industries like farming etc. I can't see the problem with free trade agreements either. The EU wants our stuff, we want theirs so what's the problem? To me it appears that once we leave and the EU isn't getting our money, then other members have to make up for it which is probably what they're so aggrieved about. We're so integrated in the EU though when most of our industries were sold off to European companies (and paid for by EU grants to those companies).

It's just sad that most of our industries have been destroyed and wiped off the map so they can't be rebuilt. The steel industry for example. Sheffield steel was one of the finest steels in the world alongside German Solingan and Swedish Eskilstuna. I'm sure in modern times no one will miss the coal mines, but was once a great industry. The shipyards have mostly, if not all gone.. Railways.. the list goes on.

Anyway, I'm sure there are those who disagree with some if not all of what I've said as these are my opinions. I just hope that Boris can make good since the majority have voted him in (not me, I didn't vote for him).

 

My problem is not one of economics or who is and isn’t in power, my issue is with identity. Everyone goes on about English this and British that.  I was born in Germany, both of my parents are English but apparently I’m not, I have to be British and have had this rammed down my throat several times and having seen the way that nationalism is portrayed within this country I want no part of it, I’ve even had someone claim that because I was born in Germany I have no right to moan about what happens in Britain, given that I have worn the uniform of this countries army and fought for it when asked to, given that I have held a British passport from birth and given that both my birth parents are English I find that ever so slightly insulting and laughable at the same time.

 

So what’s left for me to Identify as? The answer is European and now I’m told that’s not allowed either.

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4 minutes ago, Mr Binks said:

My problem is not one of economics or who is and isn’t in power, my issue is with identity. Everyone goes on about English this and British that.  I was born in Germany, both of my parents are English but apparently I’m not, I have to be British and have had this rammed down my throat several times and having seen the way that nationalism is portrayed within this country I want no part of it, I’ve even had someone claim that because I was born in Germany I have no right to moan about what happens in Britain, given that I have worn the uniform of this countries army and fought for it when asked to, given that I have held a British passport from birth and given that both my birth parents are English I find that ever so slightly insulting and laughable at the same time.

 

So what’s left for me to Identify as? The answer is European and now I’m told that’s not allowed either.

If both parents are English then you can identify as English, it doesn't matter where you are born, you take the nationality of your parents (right of blood). Though if you were born in Germany and have a German birth certificate then I'd expect you could claim dual nationality when you came of age.

I identify as Yorkshire first ;) 


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@filthynines.........perhaps it is an age thing. I am 62 and can remember. certain amount of my life outside of the EU. When we joined, the jokes were that with the conversion to decimal, butchers would make a fortune rounding up the cost of anything weighed......my father was a self employed solicitor and I can well remember hushed meeting of the partners questioning cash flow and how they were to survive......but they did. Anyone born after we joined, has grown up within the EU family, who like a supermarket, assures us they are a one stop shop where we can get everything under one roof....but can we? I understand the trepidation you face, especially if you are fairly content with your lot, but I promise you, at the end of every gunnel there is light. Agreed, whether we see the light or not depends on politicians making decisions on our behalf. 

I would suggest to you, that if you are a part of a large firm or corporation, then you are not allowed to really think for yourself. You do what you are told, all in the name of corporate image. Can you do better? Not if you believe the mumbo jumbo they tell you. Corporations only look after their own interests and have little interest in the welfare of others, unless they are owned by them. Have belief, dip your toe in the water and breathe the air of a free person. Business tends to take care of itself, otherwise it dies.....sorry to sound like I am lecturing you, I am not. I understand that you think 10 years is time enough to see how things pan out.

On the first day of February we can talk to who we want in the world without permission. We can control the flows of immigration so that being an EU member does not give you automatic rights. Can you remember the consideration Cameron got so that EU members could not turn up unannounced, claim benefits for their family back home etc.....not many argued about that.When I used to welcome new starters to a group I was part of, the closing line was, 'the temperature in the pool is lovely. Come on in' and many did!

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Until the end of 2020 we are still in the EU and paying contributions. Boris has ruled out seeking an extension to this to create another deal/no deal cliff edge for 1st Jan 2021.

Our infrastructure for a no deal on this date for IT systems required to run the necessary Border and trade checks, plus the new complexity of Northern Ireland being both in and out of the UK will not be in place. The government have been told this.

It may be that the EU will seek an extension instead to ease Boris's blushes and some cobbled together principle of understanding may be saved to appease the Brexiteers that a deal is coming.

Frankly, there is very little confidence around that the next part of Brexit won't be a bigger shambles than what has occurred up till now.

This is the beginning, not the end. The GIRUY's are a bit premature.

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I voted "out" because like others, it would been of personal benefit to my own business to remain but not in the interests of my children, imho.  We've already given away many of our vetos and cards secured by Thatcher and we've reached a stage where our common market ideology is no longer the mainstay of Project Europe which is to be taken to the next stage of a Federal States of Europe.  I can see nothing good coming of that.  Just the social engineering side of that alone is insidious and would end up denying certain freedoms, let alone the economic and cultural impacts.

The UK has been an open book (in more than one sense) for years now, and has spectacularly failed to be as protectionist for our own industries and interests as the rest of the EU has been for theirs.   As such we've had goal posts moved on major projects at bidding time for the benefit of France and Germany (remember the "bendy bus" scandal anyone?).  The whole fishing quota nonsense was openly formulated to bolster and grow the French fishing industry, despite GDP contributions being relatively minor.  We have done more damage to ourselves by the way we introduce over reaching legislation off the back of EU Directives that has been responsible for much of the red tape that we operate under whilst the rest of the EU seems to cherry pick just how far they go with their own legislative burden on industry.  There are several exceptions which include the water Industry, environmental protection and some aspects of health and safety (not all...but some) legislation all of which few can deny are in the common interest and where much of the associated administrative burden is justified.

The real downside for us economically isn't the risk of relatively minor import tarrifs that will be levied on us for high value goods and services, but the impact on many industries that currently export lots of the lower value exports.  The books simply won't balance.  That is exactly what the EU wants.  It's self protectionist. 

What is likely is that to compete with a growing export market for say the USA and elsewhere, the pound will likely be devalued to parity with the US Dollar and with the Euro.  We can't compete currently without that devaluation, especially on WTO rules.  This means increased import costs but here at least we hold some of the cards in that we are still a very important market for the European car industry (for example) so to survive and grow they will need to reach agreement with us or risk losing a big chunk of their market.   Germany is already knocking on the door of a major recession so no-one can claim it' in their interests to play hard ball with us now.  As to the City Financial Market, it is still alive and kicking despite the scare mongering that it would shut down and move abroad if we decided to leave.  That hasn't happened. 

As for the false mantra with the EU whining that "it's not possible to have a trade deal within 12 months"...of course it isn't!  It never was!  We go out on WTO and then spend several years or more carefully building mutually beneficial trade deals, not capitulating to EU knee-jerk sentiment and demands for further extension.  That is the cost of leaving, as are the ramifications for border control and IT management, so we need to get over it.  It's no argument for remaining as it is and always was a short to medium term cost and despite what those on the remain side think, most "Leavers" knew this when voting.  The costs to the UK will be painful in the short term but with better prospects longer term.  Financial markets know that. The EU have had just as long to prepare for this and clearly haven't had any intention of doing so because they never believed with would leave.  They do now and are panicking.  They share the responsibility for things getting this far and no-one should lose sight of that.

 

Edited by Bica60s

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@Mr Binks

I hear everything you say but......you inherit the domicile of your parents so you are indeed British. I am British as well, even though I was born in England, as part of the Union, England no longer exists as an entity. You are always going to get bigots and idiots in life, you know that. I suspect you are man enough not to be too concerned about it. Your post confuses me a little, especially how you see yourself. We Brits do have some funny ideas, I quite agree with you. We have been raped and pillaged by many different countries over the centuries, perhaps that is why we are resilient now. We fought a war against Germany (twice) and with the help of others, overcame. Perhaps when you are an island you view anyone who tries to board your beaches with suspicion! GB always has punched well above its weight for such a small country. That makes us very proud and a few things too many, are sacrosanct. National identity, the £, the Royal family and I could go on.

A lot of us want absolutely nothing to do with a bunch of faceless bureaucrats who are able to make decisions for our (their) good. They are not accountable to anyone, is that healthy. Everyone needs to be accountable to someone or thing, otherwise you have a dictatorship, which is exactly where the EU is heading. It is the most undemocratic institution I have ever seen. I will not rant anymore because I am not trying to incite. I can see good points to it, and a lot of bad. Fresh air is beautiful to breathe, especially when there are no EU laws attached to it.........so, rock and roll for 10 years and fingers crossed! 

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14 minutes ago, DavecUK said:

And I have done!

:)What colour underpants  were you in.

If dfk wants one I'll comply. I usually buy pre registered cars and keep them for years and then buy another. It was near the time where it pays in some ways to change when the NHS post brexit adds were broadcast. That a few others like millions of Turks, eastern european people getting jobs and a other things being bandied about convinced me that they were going to achieve their aims so I changed early. I could have waited another 10 months as it turned out but changing when I did saved me nearly £2000. At the time I didn't know what make or model I would be buying so as it turned out that is probably an extreme example. The car is traded in USD. Many things are. They accept some variation but there comes a point when margins have to be bought back in line taking all sorts of things into account. Unlike clothes can't really make them out of thinner cheaper materials or find cheaper labour so easily.

Same sort of thing has happened one way or the other with all sorts of things. My car passed it's first MOT mid last year.

As I said they weren't into convincing everybody and never ever were.

John

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20 minutes ago, Rhys said:

If both parents are English then you can identify as English, it doesn't matter where you are born, you take the nationality of your parents (right of blood). Though if you were born in Germany and have a German birth certificate then I'd expect you could claim dual nationality when you came of age.

I identify as Yorkshire first ;) 

Apparently not, and I don’t hold a German birth certificate, it’s a British consular birth certificate. Welcome to the joys of far right nationalist viewpoints in good old GB, a nationalism that has been fuelled by the whole Brexit process.

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3 minutes ago, Mr Binks said:

Apparently not, and I don’t hold a German birth certificate, it’s a British consular birth certificate. Welcome to the joys of far right nationalist viewpoints in good old GB, a nationalism that has been fuelled by the whole Brexit process.

Now you are talking bollocks matey! If your parents are English, then so are you. If you were born abroad, ask your parents why they did not register the birth in the UK. Domicilty exists for a number of reasons that cover things like tax, residency and the like. You are trying to suggest you are stuck without identity, but did you not say you had a British passport? No one has an English Passport (prove me wrong!)

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2 minutes ago, Mr Binks said:

Apparently not, and I don’t hold a German birth certificate, it’s a British consular birth certificate. Welcome to the joys of far right nationalist viewpoints in good old GB, a nationalism that has been fuelled by the whole Brexit process.

It doesn't matter where you live. Countries will always have those people who try to steer everything to suit their own agenda whether it be far right, communist or socialist.

Unfortunately people often follow the largest group so they can appear to 'fit in' with society and not be picked out as the enemy of the state.


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