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Should Big Ben chime to celebrate leaving?

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3 hours ago, coffeechap said:

My one fear in all of this was nothing to do with economics or how much we pay in or get out. It was safety and security within Europe most of the brexiters will be dead and buried when the true costs of this become apparent.

Our security is not nor never has been dependant upon the EU.  They are marching towards a joint strike force, doomed to failure before it starts because of the pretty much insurmountable issues surrounding simple things like when something does go off, who is in charge? who contributes what and how does the logistics work?  Our own military chiefs have been against this from the start although Bliar  cutting back on our regiments, merging many, cutting spending for the navy and air force to slim-line the forces in readiness for our entry into a joint reaction force...which then never happened, thankfully.

Our security and that of Europe relies largely on NATO and has done for decades.  That doesn't change when we leave the EU. That being said, it may pay the EU to behave a little more honestly and with a bit more dignity to the USA who have carried them in just abpout every conflict going since NATO was formed.  Falling out with Trump, love him or hate him, is not in their interests and most certainly not in our interests come to that.  What may well change after Jan 31st is intelligence sharing but it remains in the interests of both EU member countries (a pet hate is people referring to them as "states" when there is no united states of Europe, as much as the EU would LOVE that to happen) to continue to co-operate and it already happens within NATO.  As for the UN, they're a useless bunch of toothless tigers when it comes to protection and  European security.  So where exactly is the worry with security?

The only real issue which lets be honest was a mess already is management of borders.  The government will have to pour loads more resources and cash at that if we have any chance of keeping our borders properly controlled.

There was an earlier comment about the NHS being largely unaffected by whether we were in or out of the EU.  That's not strictly true as freedom of movement and many coming over from EU countries to the UK for treatment has run up a pretty massive bill.   We have, NOT, as yet, reclaimed what we were owed by way of the reciprocal agreement in place, as part of current negotiations.  Whilst it doesn't reflect on what the NHS needs to fix it, it certainly has raised the amount needed in the short to medium term.  Quite necessarily so had those receipts been reclaimed by a properly administered system.

Edited by Bica60s
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13 minutes ago, ashcroc said:
22 minutes ago, dfk41 said:
We are an island, not part of a continent.....did you pay attention at the back of the class 

If the climate activists have their way & manage to reverse the global warming that's been happening since before humanity existed, the water level may drop enough to drain the English Channel & connect us back to mainland Europe again.

That’s a worrying thought. 

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13 minutes ago, dfk41 said:

I wonder how many of our European friends, really still believe in the project 100%. I suspect there are a few countries looking to see how we escape, then asking us to photocopy the escape map and give them a copy! The EU are fighting for their very existence now and they know it, which is why the dirty tricks department are in overtime

I think that there are no prizes for guessing that both Hungary and Poland both want out for starters...

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running out of popcorn, can you export that stuff?

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I think that there are no prizes for guessing that both Hungary and Poland both want out for starters...
With a main course of Greece, Italy and Portugal

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1 minute ago, Bica60s said:

 

Our security and that of Europe relies largely on NATO and has done for decades. 

America has been bankrolling NATO for decades as Trump has pointed out. Most EU members of NATO don’t meet the minimum 3% contribution so how an EU army is going to fill the vacuum of NATO is beyond me. 

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7 minutes ago, Bica60s said:

Our security is not nor never has been dependant upon the EU.  They are marching towards a joint strike force, doomed to failure before it starts because of the pretty much insurmountable issues surrounding simple things like when something does go off, who is in charge? who contributes what and how does the logistics work?  Our own military chiefs have been against this from the start although Bliar  cutting back on our regiments, merging many, cutting spending for the navy and air force to slim-line the forces in readiness for our entry into a joint reaction force...which then never happened, thankfully.

Our security and that of Europe relies largely on NATO and has done for decades.  That doesn't change when we leave the EU. That being said, it may pay the EU to behave a little more honestly and with a bit more dignity to the USA who have carried them in just abpout every conflict going since NATO was formed.  Falling out with Trump, love him or hate him, is not in their interests and most certainly not in our interests come to that.  What may well change after Jan 31st is intelligence sharing but it remains in the interests of both EU member countries (a pet hate is people referring to them as "states" when there is no united states of Europe, as much as the EU would LOVE that to happen) to continue to co-operate and it already happens within NATO.  As for the UN, they're a useless bunch of toothless tigers when it comes to protection and  European security.  So where exactly is the worry with security?

The only real issue which lets be honest was a mess already is management of borders.  The government will have to pour loads more resources and cash at that if we have any chance of keeping our borders properly controlled.

There was an earlier comment about the NHS being largely unaffected by whether we were in or out of the EU.  That's not strictly true as freedom of movement and many coming over from EU countries to the UK for treatment has run up a pretty massive bill.   We have, NOT, as yet, reclaimed what we were owed by way of the reciprocal agreement in place, as part of current negotiations.  Whilst it doesn't reflect on what the NHS needs to fix it, it certainly has raised the amount needed in the short to medium term.  Quite necessarily so had those receipts been reclaimed by a properly administered system.

Dear lord you like to write can you try and make your posts longer please

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AKA Toffee chips

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3 minutes ago, Bica60s said:

I think that there are no prizes for guessing that both Hungary and Poland both want out for starters...

These countries are net budget beneficiaries from the EU. They aren’t going to give that up. 


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25 minutes ago, dfk41 said:

Yes Mark, but he was referring to our status as a great country, which is why in the same sentence, he actually went on to say, 'I am also thinking of visiting shit Scotland'......but obviously thought better of it

Britain isn't a country.

It wasn't always an island (well the Great part at least), the first people in the British Isles walked here...from, guess where? :-)

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“Coffee evokes the most insane reactions in people”, Rene Redzepi.

 

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Just now, The Systemic Kid said:

America has been bankrolling NATO for decades as Trump has pointed out. Most EU members of NATO don’t meet the minimum 3% contribution so how an EU army is going to fill the vacuum of NATO is beyond me. 

It can't.

Look at the "war games" over the past 5 or 10 years and the USA plus same 3 EU nations and Commonwealth nations  hold up the rest in just about every area:   From Europe, the top three every year are the UK, France and Germany.  

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3 minutes ago, coffeechap said:

Dear lord you like to write can you try and make your posts longer please

OK.

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13 minutes ago, The Systemic Kid said:

That’s a worrying thought. 

Not at all........we can borrow the Toll Booth from Blazing Saddles

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7 minutes ago, coffeechap said:

Dear lord you like to write can you try and make your posts longer please

Hey baldy, leave my new pal alone........LOL

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6 minutes ago, MWJB said:

Britain isn't a country.

It wasn't always an island (well the Great part at least), the first people in the British Isles walked here...from, guess where? ?

Ireland or the USA?

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2 hours ago, The Systemic Kid said:

It amuses me how those who voted leave have been routinely labelled ignorant - especially in relation to the economic arguments. Some facts. When the UK joined the EEC in 1972, it's economy was in the pits. The UK was dubbed, 'the sick man of Europe'.  We even had to apply to the IMF for a bail out loan. The EEC, comprising six member states, accounted for in excess of 30% of world trade. It made sense for the UK to join a burgeoning economic project.  Fast forward to 2020 and the EU is in a mess. Euro member states' economic growth has been woeful. Don't shout it, but the UK, outside the Euro, has outgrown Germany for GDP growth. The EU's share of world trade has declined now accounting for 15% of it as opposed to 30% in the 1970's. So, from a cold hard economic perspective, why would the UK want to remain part of a failing economic project? 

GDP growth globally has been very small stagnating or declining over the last few years. The ONS only yesterday announced a UK growth of 0.1% over the last 3  months and the lowest year on year rise since 2012. Your example shows UK outperforming other EU states whilst still in the EU.

I think the one year transition to a UK/EU trade deal will be extraordinarily difficult to achieve.

A previous poster alluded to fisheries. The current EU fisheries policy is very complicated and will not be easy to get out of. Only the large factory vessels are in favour of tearing it up because they see a chance for extra quotas that they don't have to share. However, they have to sell the fish they catch and the UK fish processing industry sells billions to the EU as well as smaller specialised fishermen who sell fish that the UK doesn't like to the EU. They don't want tarriffs or delays in transport or to send their goods to further destinations.  So access to sell to the EU market will be traded for access to our seas, as happens now. In the end nothing much will change from how it works now. Unless we leave without a deal. In that scenario increased navy protection vessels will be required. Small specialist fishermen will go out of business as their market is gone and large vessels will catch more than they can sell resulting in a smaller fleet unless new markets can be found outwith EU. It's not going to be a bed of roses.

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2 minutes ago, Step21 said:

It's not going to be a bed of roses.

It may not be a bed of roses, but it will be our bed of roses.........

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11 minutes ago, dfk41 said:

It may not be a bed of roses, but it will be our bed of roses.........

Your bed if roses


AKA Toffee chips

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17 minutes ago, Step21 said:

GDP growth globally has been very small stagnating or declining over the last few years. The ONS only yesterday announced a UK growth of 0.1% over the last 3  months and the lowest year on year rise since 2012. Your example shows UK outperforming other EU states whilst still in the EU.

I think the one year transition to a UK/EU trade deal will be extraordinarily difficult to achieve.

A previous poster alluded to fisheries. The current EU fisheries policy is very complicated and will not be easy to get out of. Only the large factory vessels are in favour of tearing it up because they see a chance for extra quotas that they don't have to share. However, they have to sell the fish they catch and the UK fish processing industry sells billions to the EU as well as smaller specialised fishermen who sell fish that the UK doesn't like to the EU. They don't want tarriffs or delays in transport or to send their goods to further destinations.  So access to sell to the EU market will be traded for access to our seas, as happens now. In the end nothing much will change from how it works now. Unless we leave without a deal. In that scenario increased navy protection vessels will be required. Small specialist fishermen will go out of business as their market is gone and large vessels will catch more than they can sell resulting in a smaller fleet unless new markets can be found outwith EU. It's not going to be a bed of roses.

That may have some truth to it but it is also widely recognised and agreed that the CFP has been disastrous for the UK fishing industry, even if parts of it have been geared towards preserving stocks, and a worse position longer term for the UK would be leaving the EU but remaining in the CFP.  One train of thought is that remaining will allow the EU additional time to change the rules to make it impossible for the uK to ever reclaim national waters to protect their own fishing fleets, many of whom bought up swathes of past UK quotas in dodgy deals between the UK government and the EU (remember what Gummer did for our fishing industry?).

The Scottish fleet, mainly out of Fraserborough and Peterhead, are on record as saying that they understand the risks of leaving the CFP and the EU but that in their  eyes, it's more than just about what happens to smaller specialist fisherment or export tariffs to Europe; it's about regaining control of our waters and doing away with some of the bad practises of the CFP and a recognisiton that the CFP and the way it is managed is yet another example of the EU protectionist attitude towards mainland European industry at the cost to us in the UK, as happen with other industries.

It'll just be another bargaining chip in reality as the contribution towards GDP is minuscule whilst impacts on the way of life and on communities around our coastlines is seen as more important to those communities.

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Britain isn't a country.
It wasn't always an island (well the Great part at least), the first people in the British Isles walked here...from, guess where? :-)
Pangaea?
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Laissez les bons temps rouler

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34 minutes ago, dfk41 said:

It may not be a bed of roses, but it will be our bed of roses.........

An interesting fact, the traditional rose was largely cultivated in China and the English rose was cultivated using varieties that would have made their way here via mainland Europe........

Edited by Mr Binks

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53 minutes ago, Bica60s said:

I think that there are no prizes for guessing that both Hungary and Poland both want out for starters...

Poland doesn't have the Euro as its currency and neither does Hungary. There was a recent news story that said Poland may have to leave the EU as it will break EU laws over its judicial reform proposals.


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2 minutes ago, Rhys said:

Poland doesn't have the Euro as its currency and neither does Hungary. There was a recent news story that said Poland may have to leave the EU as it will break EU laws over its judicial reform proposals.

When they are happy to accept unsigned documents on plain photocopy paper as official parliamentary procedure, I cannot see a little thing like judicial reform procedures getting in the way!

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