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richwade80

Air in system after removing water tank?

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Hi all,

 

Last week I removed the lid to show an interested plumber how the machine works. I obviously removed the water tank to do this.

 

When I replaced everything the pump made a lot more noise and the pressure needle was bouncing all over. After running steam, hot water etc it seemed to purge and be fine.

 

Today I removed the lid to tweak the pressure stat. Same happened again.

 

It’s never happened before when removing the tank for cleaning etc.

 

Is this usual, perhaps some air is getting in when I replace the tank?

 

 

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2000 - Krups Vivo + Whittard hand grinder

2010 - Gaggia Classic + Iberital MC2

2017 - ECM Mechanika IV Profi + Niche Zero

Aeropress / V60 / Puck Puck / Cafetière / Moka Pot / Ibrik (كـَنـَكـَة) / Lido E

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Presumably you remove the tank every week to wash the inside....as it's not happened before your machine may be in need of some maintenance. How old is the machine and how long have you owned it?

 

P.S. Removing the tank is a normal thing to do and shouldn't cause problems.


 My reviews at http://coffeestuff.byethost12.com/ (now ad free)  Various Machines and grinders, Amazon Dalian 1kg Drum Roaster: My reviews at https://coffeeequipmentreviews.wordpress.com/ (old site)

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Machine is three years old I think. Owned from new. Runs on bottled water only.

I probably remove the tank every couple of months... as it’s usually clean still.

It hasn’t been back to BB for maintenance. I’ve not had any other issues.


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2000 - Krups Vivo + Whittard hand grinder

2010 - Gaggia Classic + Iberital MC2

2017 - ECM Mechanika IV Profi + Niche Zero

Aeropress / V60 / Puck Puck / Cafetière / Moka Pot / Ibrik (كـَنـَكـَة) / Lido E

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1 hour ago, richwade80 said:

Machine is three years old I think. Owned from new. Runs on bottled water only.

I probably remove the tank every couple of months... as it’s usually clean still.

It hasn’t been back to BB for maintenance. I’ve not had any other issues.


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I remove my tank and clean it every week, I assume you are not using it plumbed...if not you should be cleaning the tank every week or so, every couple of months is way too long IMO.

If you have not maintained it in 3 years or internally inspected it, you may have any number of small issues (perhaps this is one of them). A machine should be inspected (at the very least) every year and any necessary maintenance performed. Ideally a 6 monthly visual inspection can identify problems early and keep costs or damage to a minimum.

Bottled water still contains stuff...eventually that builds up in the machine....some bottled waters are "cleaner" in terms of espresso machine usage than others.

 

P.S. Hopefully you also drop the shower screen every few days and give it a good clean and the area behind it....


 My reviews at http://coffeestuff.byethost12.com/ (now ad free)  Various Machines and grinders, Amazon Dalian 1kg Drum Roaster: My reviews at https://coffeeequipmentreviews.wordpress.com/ (old site)

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Today it’s given up.

Looks like it can’t draw water in from the tank. It tries, sounds like it’s drawing in air, the pressure goes up above normal. I switched it off and the bubbles came out of the tank from the feed.

I think the tank may now be mostly empty so it’s off permanently.

The idea of sending this away fills me with courier horror. Is a local service possible, recommended?


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2000 - Krups Vivo + Whittard hand grinder

2010 - Gaggia Classic + Iberital MC2

2017 - ECM Mechanika IV Profi + Niche Zero

Aeropress / V60 / Puck Puck / Cafetière / Moka Pot / Ibrik (كـَنـَكـَة) / Lido E

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1 hour ago, richwade80 said:

The idea of sending this away fills me with courier horror. Is a local service possible, recommended?

Local to where? 

It might also be worth removing the case to check for any obvious causes. 

Edited by DavecUK

 My reviews at http://coffeestuff.byethost12.com/ (now ad free)  Various Machines and grinders, Amazon Dalian 1kg Drum Roaster: My reviews at https://coffeeequipmentreviews.wordpress.com/ (old site)

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I’m in Bath, but I was curious if mobile servicing for domestic machines is a thing generally.


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2010 - Gaggia Classic + Iberital MC2

2017 - ECM Mechanika IV Profi + Niche Zero

Aeropress / V60 / Puck Puck / Cafetière / Moka Pot / Ibrik (كـَنـَكـَة) / Lido E

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There’s nothing obvious to me under the case.

What I can say is that the pump is working when the tank is in place. The water level marginally changes if at all. Air is ejected back through the tank after the machine is switched off.

To me, it seems the tank connection is where air is getting in. Like it’s not engaging properly.


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2000 - Krups Vivo + Whittard hand grinder

2010 - Gaggia Classic + Iberital MC2

2017 - ECM Mechanika IV Profi + Niche Zero

Aeropress / V60 / Puck Puck / Cafetière / Moka Pot / Ibrik (كـَنـَكـَة) / Lido E

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Mobile servicing is a thing for commercial machines if you have a contract....with no contract (if you can persuade someone to come out) it's usually expensive. For prosumer stuff, the commercial boys don't usually work on it (probably won't have parts) and if they did, you wouldn't like the rates.

It's probably something simple that you can fix yourself. In fact you seem to have already started the diagnostic process. With the case off, work logically and methodically from the tank to the pump, look for a blockage, kinked pipe, faulty bottom of tank valve etc..Trace the water path. Underneath the plastic tank press the valve thing in, is water running out. If the brew pressure gauge take off is directly after the pump does it show pressure (if not the pumps producing nothing), if it's after a solenoid and it shows no pressure...is the valve opening or possibly blocked.

Start to logically trace the fault, gather information, take photos if necessary....in all probability you can easily fix this yourself. Produce Video (with sound) showing the fault with as much info as possible.You might even have a member near you who can take a look. So far with no video/photos/basic diagnostic work...even for me, it's difficult to help.

Or...pack it in it's box (really, really well) and send it back to BB where you bought it for servicing/repair.

 

P.S. What bottled water exactly, photo of ingredients label.

 

Edited by DavecUK

 My reviews at http://coffeestuff.byethost12.com/ (now ad free)  Various Machines and grinders, Amazon Dalian 1kg Drum Roaster: My reviews at https://coffeeequipmentreviews.wordpress.com/ (old site)

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2 hours ago, richwade80 said:

There’s nothing obvious to me under the case.

What I can say is that the pump is working when the tank is in place. The water level marginally changes if at all. Air is ejected back through the tank after the machine is switched off.

To me, it seems the tank connection is where air is getting in. Like it’s not engaging properly.


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Does it have a Tank/ mains  feed tap underneath that might have been moved to mains feed or halfway .. Might be worth checking.

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It runs off the tank on Waitrose essential water only. It does have a tank switch but it’s never been moved.

Anyway - News update - I checked the switch under the machine and found water. Most of the tank has drained out!

The base of the tank housing is dry so I have a leak beyond that point.

Good news I guess. Now I’m closer to solving it... I’ll keep you posted and thanks for the encouragement Dave.


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2000 - Krups Vivo + Whittard hand grinder

2010 - Gaggia Classic + Iberital MC2

2017 - ECM Mechanika IV Profi + Niche Zero

Aeropress / V60 / Puck Puck / Cafetière / Moka Pot / Ibrik (كـَنـَكـَة) / Lido E

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Good news, eliminates a lot of other possibilities....just need to find out exactly where it's coming from and secure it....best way is case off, fill tank run pump (against a blind filter)and look with a torch.

Edited by DavecUK

 My reviews at http://coffeestuff.byethost12.com/ (now ad free)  Various Machines and grinders, Amazon Dalian 1kg Drum Roaster: My reviews at https://coffeeequipmentreviews.wordpress.com/ (old site)

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Problem solved. The plastic threaded feed to the tank has sheared on the threads!!!

Overall photo for the record

0ab09accc11d794e03f59f1865493df7.jpg

Base of the tank. Threaded feed in white.

a49bca938d8afb2b903917456c74d921.jpg

Underside of tank with threaded feed split - notice clear air towards the top.

f975b9594bf12237a708a7e51f5f145d.jpg


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2000 - Krups Vivo + Whittard hand grinder

2010 - Gaggia Classic + Iberital MC2

2017 - ECM Mechanika IV Profi + Niche Zero

Aeropress / V60 / Puck Puck / Cafetière / Moka Pot / Ibrik (كـَنـَكـَة) / Lido E

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A better view

ccc5374ae4b0907f51176f33e9e4ae31.jpg


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2000 - Krups Vivo + Whittard hand grinder

2010 - Gaggia Classic + Iberital MC2

2017 - ECM Mechanika IV Profi + Niche Zero

Aeropress / V60 / Puck Puck / Cafetière / Moka Pot / Ibrik (كـَنـَكـَة) / Lido E

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9 hours ago, richwade80 said:

 

You have found the fault and potentially helped anyone who gets a similar problem directly after replacing tank. A problem I have never seen happen before. 

Whilst waitng for the part, I think you could possibly effect a repair with a 2 pack epoxy adhesive. Let it set overnight and ensure smooth inside. 


 My reviews at http://coffeestuff.byethost12.com/ (now ad free)  Various Machines and grinders, Amazon Dalian 1kg Drum Roaster: My reviews at https://coffeeequipmentreviews.wordpress.com/ (old site)

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You have found the fault and potentially helped anyone who gets a similar problem directly after replacing tank. A problem I have never seen happen before. 
Whilst waitng for the part, I think you could possibly effect a repair with a 2 pack epoxy adhesive. Let it set overnight and ensure smooth inside. 


I could... but I don’t mind being forced into alternative means.

It’s moka pot all the way for me. It’s good to dedicate time to another method in order to improve results.

It is curious as to how this happened though, I think it was my fault. The water tank on the machine doesn’t sit perfectly level when installed so I have pushed it down before to see if it needed to engage further. I must have overdone it. I wouldn’t say I forced it though.


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2000 - Krups Vivo + Whittard hand grinder

2010 - Gaggia Classic + Iberital MC2

2017 - ECM Mechanika IV Profi + Niche Zero

Aeropress / V60 / Puck Puck / Cafetière / Moka Pot / Ibrik (كـَنـَكـَة) / Lido E

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I am not sure... When I get a chance I will suggest to BB that the get a small stock of these. They should be inexpensive and save a long wait. The main issue for BB is stock management and storage of so many different parts. 


 My reviews at http://coffeestuff.byethost12.com/ (now ad free)  Various Machines and grinders, Amazon Dalian 1kg Drum Roaster: My reviews at https://coffeeequipmentreviews.wordpress.com/ (old site)

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They already have them!


https://www.bellabarista.co.uk/ecm-tank-adaptor-for-reservoir.html


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2000 - Krups Vivo + Whittard hand grinder

2010 - Gaggia Classic + Iberital MC2

2017 - ECM Mechanika IV Profi + Niche Zero

Aeropress / V60 / Puck Puck / Cafetière / Moka Pot / Ibrik (كـَنـَكـَة) / Lido E

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Interesting, especially that they are now grey, perhaps a different formulation?

At least you will be up and running in a few days :)

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Yes, I was lucky it wasn’t more serious. I’ll improve my maintenance regime going forward. Glad I’ve opened it all up though now.

I will check with BB tomorrow that the part is the same fitting. But it looks right and part number is right.



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2000 - Krups Vivo + Whittard hand grinder

2010 - Gaggia Classic + Iberital MC2

2017 - ECM Mechanika IV Profi + Niche Zero

Aeropress / V60 / Puck Puck / Cafetière / Moka Pot / Ibrik (كـَنـَكـَة) / Lido E

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Possibly caught / knocked the adapter as you removed the tank ? Side blow would have that effect. As Dave said odd they have changed the material= softer / less brittle/ heat age effect ?

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It’s quite an odd failure - the top part of the threads is embedded in the nylon nut above the tank housing, so it’s failed below of course.

The only way you could do that is to over tighten it, or force it from below. The way the tank engages (male to female) does push the lower part down, but not with much resistance / force required.

I will check when the part arrives this week and see what’s happening with the covers off.


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2000 - Krups Vivo + Whittard hand grinder

2010 - Gaggia Classic + Iberital MC2

2017 - ECM Mechanika IV Profi + Niche Zero

Aeropress / V60 / Puck Puck / Cafetière / Moka Pot / Ibrik (كـَنـَكـَة) / Lido E

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Replacement installed and all working properly.

I tested the tank fitting, and there was no unusual resistance.

6f9ad48b24a53f92955af3fcf5f0cf3a.jpg


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2000 - Krups Vivo + Whittard hand grinder

2010 - Gaggia Classic + Iberital MC2

2017 - ECM Mechanika IV Profi + Niche Zero

Aeropress / V60 / Puck Puck / Cafetière / Moka Pot / Ibrik (كـَنـَكـَة) / Lido E

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Interesting update. The machine now works differently.

It’s a lot quieter when the pump is running - presumably I must have bean getting small amounts of air being drawn in before.

And, although admittedly I am running new beans, the grind needs to be a lot finer. 5 clicks finer on the NZ which puts me at about 13. Not where I usually am.

It will be interesting to see if this all addresses any other recent niggles I was having; pinholes, and poor looking extracts.


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2000 - Krups Vivo + Whittard hand grinder

2010 - Gaggia Classic + Iberital MC2

2017 - ECM Mechanika IV Profi + Niche Zero

Aeropress / V60 / Puck Puck / Cafetière / Moka Pot / Ibrik (كـَنـَكـَة) / Lido E

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