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Artisan/Roastlogger and Amazon Dalian


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So, a couple of questions:

  • Do you all prefer Artisan vs Roastlogger. If so, is there a particular reason? Are there any pros to use RL instead?
     
  • What hardware is preferred? Hasi said the below...
     
  • Has anybody written a guide for setting it all up?

Thanks in advance!

 

On 28/06/2018 at 15:31, Hasi said:

A year later, yes!

 

In three steps:

- first, I tried with supplied K-Type with no interpretable results.

- then, I re-routed RT probe to MyPCLab USB module for testing purposes - worked ok. With 6mm sheaths (or is it 1/4in?) I couldn't really tweak Artisan to show constant rise, curves were a bit zig-zag'ish

- just this week, I installed two Dual PT-100 sensors and connected both controllers as well as MyPCLab. Readings are a bit off, still, but over the weekend I should be able to fix it :)

 

Looking forward to my next roast where I'll have to redo my last working profile (Finca Medina - Antigua, Guatemala)

Will post my experience!

 

 

PS: I still use an old version of Artisan (believe it's around V0.8 or so) for my roast computer is vintage by now...

 

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Hi, I currently use the Dalian (I have it since 10/2017) with Artisan, latest version. I run Artisan on a Raspberry Pi 3+ with 7" Touchscreen - in combination with an Arduino UNO with TC4+ board

In addition to the above post as promised that i would add pictures. I cannot seem to edit and add them to the post so they are here as a further reply.  Large bit is the original dalian k type g

Phil, Sorry, I will take some pictures when I finish for the day. The picture I already posted shows the original k type gland with my insert in and the new 3mm k type passing through it and the secu

Posted Images

On 21/10/2019 at 15:56, filthynines said:

So, a couple of questions:

  • Do you all prefer Artisan vs Roastlogger. If so, is there a particular reason? Are there any pros to use RL instead?
     
  • What hardware is preferred? Hasi said the below...
     
  • Has anybody written a guide for setting it all up?

Thanks in advance!

 

 

Hi,

I currently use the Dalian (I have it since 10/2017) with Artisan, latest version. I run Artisan on a Raspberry Pi 3+ with 7" Touchscreen - in combination with an Arduino UNO with TC4+ board to get the "data" from Thermocouples plus adding some additional "functions" like "heater control" which can be controlled and logged in this setup via Artisan. I changed all Thermocouples to K-Type and added one near the "bean-window", by drilling a matching hole into one of the screws holding the glass-frame (see picture). (Btw. this implied also quite some "changes" on the electric side, e.g. having replaced the 'relais' with SSR, other displays, ... )

----

Now back to your question:

(1) To be honest - I never tried Roastlogger - but I am very happy with Artisan, as I can do all the things I want to do (and even more).

(2) I started my journey with the Dalian by implementing 2 additional (K-type) probes for logging: One at the "top" right point of the front plate (as ET), where the Dalian already had a place for (there I use one of the cheap 6mm China versions)  and one additional - much thinner one (1.5mm), also of much better quality - near the bean-glass (as BT) - see picture. Both connected to a Voltcraft K204 with serial/USB adapter, while connected to an older Win8 Laptop running Artisan 1.x. For me this was a perfect start, as there was no bigger change on the "hardware" required and I could still use the existing probes and displays as additional reference.

(3) I consulted the great manual (written by @DavecUK) which came with my Dalian. This was for me a great starting point to get familiar with this machine.

---

I hope this helps for a first idea - happy to share more details if needed / asked.

     

P1090427.JPG

Edited by frederic
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  • 6 months later...

Hi @frederic I wonder if you'll get this message, but I'll try anyway.

Thank you for your very helpful explanation. Can I please ask a few follow-up questions?

  1. Looking at your picture, is the K-type drilled into the lowest screw on the sight glass?
     
  2. Is that K-type in the sight glass now your BT reading?
     
  3. It's interesting that your ET probe is in the front right hole manufactured by Dalian. I thought the ET probe should be the one at the very rear, which is hooked up to the "Air Temperature" reading. Am I wrong?
     
  4. Am I right in saying that your initial set-up had the BT and ET probes both going into the same hole, but the BT was pushed further in towards the sight glass?
     
  5. Do you now have three probes in place, as that picture suggests that you do? If so, why is that?
     
  6. Why did you choose K-type over RTD? Do you have a recommended supplier?

Thank you very much for your help so far, and I hope that you see this message!

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On 02/08/2020 at 12:57, filthynines said:
  1. Looking at your picture, is the K-type drilled into the lowest screw on the sight glass?
  2. Is that K-type in the sight glass now your BT reading?
  3. It's interesting that your ET probe is in the front right hole manufactured by Dalian. I thought the ET probe should be the one at the very rear, which is hooked up to the "Air Temperature" reading. Am I wrong?
  4. Am I right in saying that your initial set-up had the BT and ET probes both going into the same hole, but the BT was pushed further in towards the sight glass?
  5. Do you now have three probes in place, as that picture suggests that you do? If so, why is that?
  6. Why did you choose K-type over RTD? Do you have a recommended supplier?

Hi @filthynines

I saw the message 😀 ... and regards your questions:

(1/2) - yes,  this is the k-Type and used for BT reading on Artisan (via Arduino and TC4-Board)

(3) I use this - as it seems for me the sensor there rarely touches any bean (*I tried to use it as BT in the very beginning but got only weird results) and measures (my assumption) just the air in the free room above the beans. Maybe it is not the right/best position for ET, but the hole was available and I was a bit lazy to drill and wire an additional hole near the original position in the rear.

(4) I always used the upper right hole for ET*  (with a "cheap" 5mm K-Type that came with my Dalian) - but initially tried to use the "original" left hole (occupied by the RTD) as BT with a K-Type for Artisan. But finally thought a position a little bit lower left would suite better (to be more in the bean mass). But as I am not a fan of drilling holes into the 10+mm front plate ... I drilled a screw instead 

(5) I have now 4 probes in place - two are used with the displays mounted in the Dalian (with this I have always a "somehow" neutral reference e.g. if my Arduino or RasPi goes wild) - they are in the "original positions" as built by Dalian. The other two (in the free hole for ET + in drilled screw for BT) I use with Artisan via the Arduino/TC4 and USB.

(6.1) K-Type I use, as I already had a Voltcraft K204 with serial/USB adapter - usable with K-Types only - directly supported by Artisan. When used in parallel I saw the 5mm RTD were very slow and returned different temperatures (which is "normal" as far as I know from other colleagues). In the beginning I kept the existing RTD probes for the existing Temp controller of the Dalian. But later changed those to K-Type as well (together with the controller in the Dalian) to have in itself consistent reference temperatures - all based on K-Types. As far as I heard the RTD are more precise in terms of "real temperature" - so roast curves measured with K-Type vs. those with RTD might not match, and reference temperatures like for FC are different.

(6.2) Supplier ... I bought my K-Type at "sensorshop24" e.g. this one with 1.5mm diameter => ***ps://www.sensorshop24.de/mantelthermoelement-typ-k-bis-1150c-mit-silikonkabel

I hope this helps - happy to share more.

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That is incredibly helpful, @frederic, thank you very much.

There is a lot to digest there, but one more question springs to mind: what size drill bit did you use to drill the screw? And did you drill the screw whilst still affixed to the machine? (Two questions, I suppose... ha!)

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1 hour ago, filthynines said:

That is incredibly helpful, @frederic, thank you very much.

There is a lot to digest there, but one more question springs to mind: what size drill bit did you use to drill the screw? And did you drill the screw whilst still affixed to the machine? (Two questions, I suppose... ha!)

As my thermocouple has a diameter of 1.5mm => used  a 1.5mm drill // used a matching hex screw and "mounted" 3 nuts to get a "grip" for the vice - and then slowly (with a lot of cutting oil) drilled the hole ... (I killed one screw and a drill with the first try - as I was too impatient)

Attached is a photo of one of the last roasts - just taken from the RasPi-Screen. The other shows the current setup, if you are interestedIMG_0816.thumb.JPG.89dc0c32367098bee8c2bc032fbd87c0.JPG.
Please note: Dalian is OFF - I just switched on RasPi & Arduino - so you do not see any Temp or lights on the Dalian

IMG_0818.thumb.JPG.d346c3a427ce089331451bd52d608d2f.JPG

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Hi Frederic

What smoothing settings do you have set? I'm interested as I'd expect a 1.5mm K-type with a turnaround time of 40secs to be a lot noisier than that - I been going through a bit of a journey with probes lately - I've settled on a 2mm K-type and a 3mm RTD which is mineral insulated - it's definitely slower than the K - type, but more accurate, I believe. 

Thanks Philip

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1 hour ago, Beeroclock said:

Hi Frederic

What smoothing settings do you have set? I'm interested as I'd expect a 1.5mm K-type with a turnaround time of 40secs to be a lot noisier than that - I been going through a bit of a journey with probes lately - I've settled on a 2mm K-type and a 3mm RTD which is mineral insulated - it's definitely slower than the K - type, but more accurate, I believe. 

Thanks Philip

Hi Philip

here you are.

IMG_0820.thumb.jpg.1b83a597326b657bd00b347ccc8471ae.jpg

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  • 3 weeks later...

I've taken the plunge and headed down the Artisan route, but I've yet to carry out a roast with Artisan running as I just (mostly) finished the hardware last night.

To connect the roaster to the computer I'm using Phidgets.  I considered something like a Voltcraft K202 but discounted it as the potential to expand into additional readings is an option with Phidgets.  The default route seems to be the 1048 4 x TC unit, however I've opted for a 1101 4 x TC module and a 0000 Vint Hub, which then has a USB output to the computer.  My reasons behind there were it was about £30 cheaper, the use of a Vint Hub allows up to 5 additional modules to be connected to the computer, but mainly with my track record of clever tech something's going to fail at some point so it's more economical to replace a single unit rather than the whole thing in the case of the 1048.

The Phidget units have been mounted in a project box behind the roaster, the environment temperature is being provided by the existing K-type TC mounted beside the trier and the bean temperature is to be provided by a newly installed K-type through the left hand door hinge.  To achieve this I'd planned to drill through one of the bolts, and then through the front plate, however as luck would have it the holes for the top of the hinge are through holes already so no need to take a drill to the actual roaster.  Drilling the bolt took a while without access to a small lathe (there's one at work but it's MASSIVE), as @frederic states above, lots of oil and plenty of patience.  Of course since then I found suitable M5 bolts available through Ebay... (2.5mm hole, so for my 3mm probe I'd still have had to run the drill through, but shaving 0.5mm out would have been a few seconds work).  The probe is quite long so it will have to be bent to make the cable routing a bit neater and I need to secure the TC cables out the way, but otherwise it's good to go.

I've bench tested the set up prior to installation to make sure I could get everything to talk to everything and after having to reinstall the Phidget drivers (couldn't access the Phidget control panel required to set up the modules) it was working just fine.  There'll still be plenty of refinement to do, I'm certain my first few roast profiles will look horrendous as I haven't looked at sampling rates or smoothing yet, I just wanted to focus on getting the tech to work which amazingly it does pretty much right out the box.  Given that I'm capable of destroying technology simply by being in close proximity to it, the more tech savy of you should have this working like a dream in no time!

Hopefully tomorrow should see the first few roasts with Artisan running, I'll pop the results up on here no matter how terrible they look.

I've attached some photos to show the set up.  Which brings up another point, the view showing the probe inside the drum highlights how mucky the internals are.  Does anyone have any advice for cleaning?  Without risking getting my hand stuck the only thing I can think of is running the drum with some gravel in it!

20200818_182334.jpg

20200818_182341.jpg

20200819_202042.jpg

20200819_202021.jpg

20200819_181917.jpg

20200819_181940.jpg

20200819_182107.jpg

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Nice work! You absolutely made the right choice to go with the VINT hub and TMP1101 - it's a newer design and allows for many optional add ons later should you desire - also easy to buy a module to try out RTD's at a later stage..

Here's to more a  informed roasting experience :)

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4 hours ago, Rob1 said:

@frederic

I love the look of the displays mounted in the project box. Would you mind sharing some links to the parts you used? Did you have to do any programming for them?

@Rob1  This is a combination of a Raspberry Pi 3 with a 7" Touch Display (xxx://www.amazon.de/dp/B01HPV7M4I) to run Artisan, connected via USB to a Arduino Uno + TC4 Shield for the readout / control of heater.  As I came from the Arduino - in combination with a laptop ... the Raspi made the Laptop obsolete and was for me an improvement and an evolution.

If you start from scratch and depending on the ideas, maybe a Raspi with Touch screen in combination with a Artisan supported phidget for reading the thermocouples might be sufficient and you would avoid additional programing on the arduino/TC4.

Regards RasPi => Though it might look complicated, the setup of a Raspi is quite straight forward (I have really no knowledge on the Raspi, just followed the instructions on the Artisan Page: https://artisan-roasterscope.blogspot.com/2019/02/running-artisan-on-raspberry-pi.html and it worked). As the RasPi natively supports HDMI - I started the setup just with an HDMI Monitor and a USB Mouse/Keyboard connected. The touch screen then came later, when I knew the communication Raspi/Arduino worked.   

Regards Arduino => I use the arduino and the TC4 Shield for reading the thermocouples but also to control the power ot the heater. I equipped my roaster with an SSR and do a "switch on/off" via Arduino to control power (eg Heater 50% - translates into 0.5 sec off / 0.5 sec on).  This "control" can be triggered by buttons in Artisan, and also can be used with "Alarms" for automation. I based this on aArtisan for the TC4 shield => https://github.com/greencardigan/TC4-shield. But this needs a deeper dive into Arduino/TC4 programming ...

Regards "mounting" => I used some (left over) pieces of Alu-Dibond I had on stock. Easy to drill and cut out with a fretsaw and the surface looks nice.

==

I hope this helps. Happy to answer more detailed questions - if needed.

 

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Well I've completed 3 roasts this morning, but can't view the saved profiles. Bear with me while I attempt to sort it...

Sorted, though I don't know how or why.  Restart the laptop and it worked no problem.

So here are the first 3 roasts with Artisan.  I was just using dregs of beans I have and did 3 different roast profiles based on different adjustments.  Quite crude, but it was to try and show clearly the differences made by varying airflow or the element wattage.  The RoR curve is not so much a steady decline as a rollercoaster.  Some work on the smoothing required, but also there was a flattening, rise and crash on all 3 roasts.  But on the plus side everything worked just fine technology wise.

Please feel free to tear me a new one regarding the roast profiles!

220820 - 1 - Peruvian Gonzilla G1.jpg

220820 - 2 - Ethiopian Sidamo Natural.jpg

220820 - 3 - El Salvador Diamante.jpg

Edited by CJV8
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Just to clarify, the 3 profiles above are:

1. Incremental SD adjustments throughout the roast up to FC.  Profile is OKish, but the RoR flattens out and then crashes badly.

2. Exaggerated SD adjustments throughout the roast up to FC.  Far too long a roast, extra airflow meant temperature rise was slow.

3. Same SD adjustments as 1. but with added adjustment to the element wattage, reducing it from 10mins until 12mins.

 

And a pretty picture showing the new probe bent to shape and the leads sorted out and secured.

20200822_144451.jpg

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On 20/08/2020 at 23:04, frederic said:

@Rob1

Regards Arduino => I use the arduino and the TC4 Shield for reading the thermocouples but also to control the power ot the heater. I equipped my roaster with an SSR and do a "switch on/off" via Arduino to control power (eg Heater 50% - translates into 0.5 sec off / 0.5 sec on).  This "control" can be triggered by buttons in Artisan, and also can be used with "Alarms" for automation. I based this on aArtisan for the TC4 shield => https://github.com/greencardigan/TC4-shield. But this needs a deeper dive into Arduino/TC4 programming ...

 

Is an SSR safe to use with heating elements? e.g constant triggering on and off. Is there are reason you didn't go down the SCR control with arduino instead like this https://simple-circuit.com/arduino-scr-half-wave-controlled-rectifier/#:~:text=The gate terminal is used,to control the load voltage.?

I like the idea of having some computer control over the heating element after so much time roasting with the gene and the dimmer mod. 

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3 hours ago, Rob1 said:

Is an SSR safe to use with heating elements? e.g constant triggering on and off. Is there are reason you didn't go down the SCR control with arduino instead like this https://simple-circuit.com/arduino-scr-half-wave-controlled-rectifier/#:~:text=The gate terminal is used,to control the load voltage.?

I like the idea of having some computer control over the heating element after so much time roasting with the gene and the dimmer mod. 

@Rob1 As far as I understood the function of these normal* SSR - they switch on/off only when voltage is "zero-crossing" (= built in function). With that "behaviour" they are recommended for use with PID and heater. As the heating element has a quite inert reaction, this "switch on/off" - of full sinus waves - based on fractions of a second somehow compares (in the result) to the function of an SCR, which "switches off" just a parts of the sinus wave. And this "on/off" it is less complex for me to implement.

*) I know there are other models available which switch "immediately"

Edited by frederic
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10 hours ago, CJV8 said:

Well I've completed 3 roasts this morning, but can't view the saved profiles. Bear with me while I attempt to sort it...

Sorted, though I don't know how or why.  Restart the laptop and it worked no problem.

So here are the first 3 roasts with Artisan.  I was just using dregs of beans I have and did 3 different roast profiles based on different adjustments.  Quite crude, but it was to try and show clearly the differences made by varying airflow or the element wattage.  The RoR curve is not so much a steady decline as a rollercoaster.  Some work on the smoothing required, but also there was a flattening, rise and crash on all 3 roasts.  But on the plus side everything worked just fine technology wise.

Please feel free to tear me a new one regarding the roast profiles!

Hi Chris, 

Interesting and very useful pictures. With Artisan running you can see the data and make improvements.  Looks good.

Phil.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Hi All, 

Was wondering if someone could advise on this. Today I attached a 3mm thermocouple probe to connect to Artisan for Bean Temperature. In future will also connect the preinstalled thermocouple for Air Temp.

I connected to Artisan and ran a basic test. It picks up the temperature fine, but when I turned the heat on the new probe heated up far more quickly than the Dalian displayed temp. When I turned it off Artisan was at 62c, but the Dalian was only showing 42c. Is this correct and normal or could I have a wrong setting somewhere?

For this test I had no beans in.

Thanks

Phil.

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@Dartmoor Coffee, that's perfectly normal, the Dalian probes are 5mm so take longer to react. The temps will balance out once the roaster is warmed up and stable, but each time the temp changes you'll get different readings from the probes. For example at charge the Dalian will read a bottoming temp of about 134°C and Artisan shows somewhere in the mid 80s.

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@CJV8, thanks. Had forgotten about the 5mm probes, but surprised by the latency of the 5mm probes. Maybe the position doesn't help as well?

Makes me wonder though what the actual temperature is though while roasting. Would expect the charge temp is similar due to idle, but when charged the BT must be hotter during the main roast that what is being displayed. Interesting to see the differences when I get to test.

Thanks

Phil.

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On 22/08/2020 at 12:56, CJV8 said:

Well I've completed 3 roasts this morning, but can't view the saved profiles. Bear with me while I attempt to sort it...

Sorted, though I don't know how or why.  Restart the laptop and it worked no problem.

So here are the first 3 roasts with Artisan.  I was just using dregs of beans I have and did 3 different roast profiles based on different adjustments.  Quite crude, but it was to try and show clearly the differences made by varying airflow or the element wattage.  The RoR curve is not so much a steady decline as a rollercoaster.  Some work on the smoothing required, but also there was a flattening, rise and crash on all 3 roasts.  But on the plus side everything worked just fine technology wise.

Please feel free to tear me a new one regarding the roast profiles!

220820 - 1 - Peruvian Gonzilla G1.jpg

220820 - 2 - Ethiopian Sidamo Natural.jpg

220820 - 3 - El Salvador Diamante.jpg

I can’t see where you’re marking dry end - but I suspect that you may be stretching your Maillard phase a tad..

Is this your standard roast time/length?

How do they taste?

cheers Phil

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They were just the first roasts using Artisan.  They tasted very good actually, but that's not my standard roast profile.  FC is starting nearer 10mins now, and the lack of a dry end was down to me forgetting to click the button to mark it!

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