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Nicknak

Profitec E61 Flow Control Device

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53 minutes ago, Johey said:

Sorry to ask - I don't want to interrupt this thread with another topic - but what do you mean with the "insufficient flow problem"?

I am just about to by a Lelit Bianca and as I am complete Espresso Newbie I thought at the beginning I could just put the paddle to the far right (and adjust the max pressure to 9bar) and use the machine like any other E61 machine or maybe adjust the Paddle to a position with will result in 9bar (and leave the max pressure of the machine at 10 or 11).

Will this cause any problems? 
 

If you are buying from BB in the UK I did quite a good guide for them in addition to the manufacturers instructions....will answer most of your questions.

However if you watch my review of the valve system, it will also give you some useful background information on usage, maintenance construction etc......have a look at that review as well.

As for flow I mention the valve has a replacement Gicleur, larger than the usual one fitted to machines, so if set as I advise, then fully open will mean effectively having a large gicleur and the issues that gives with potentially too much flow. Having it closed too far will result in the system generating 9 bar...but potentially with hardly any flow....which might, or more likely might not be what you want at certain parts of the shot.

Not using the system correctly can result in a worse shot....

It's all about hydraulics and the incompressibility of water vs puck resistance.

Edited by DavecUK

Crem One 2B DBPP (pre production version), ACS Vesuvius DBPP, Izzo Duetto DB, Minima DB, Lelit Bianca Prototype DBPP (paddle flow control), Lelit Mara X Prototype, BTC Machines: Roasters: Amazon Dalian 1kg Drum Roaster, other failed roasters: Grinders: Ceado E92, Niche US and UK, Eureka Atom Speciality 75, Eureka "Blow UP System", VDT Vibration thing: 145kg assorted greens: My reviews at https://coffeeequipmentreviews.wordpress.com/

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I am going to buy it from BB - just sent them an email because it seems to be out of stock at the moment.

Also watched your reviews on YT.

I understood how to use it with pressure profiling but it must also be possible to set the paddle to a position with a similar flow rate as any “standard” machines. Just wonder how to find this position.

If I cannot use this machine with a fixed paddle position and getting the same result as with any other machine I think it‘s not the right one for me. Playing around with the pressure profiling might be interesting in the future but at the beginning I would like to use it like a standard machine until I get acceptable results.

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Just need a watch with second hand and scales or measuring beaker and set free flow rate to a standard machine. Then note the position of paddle.

Edited by DavecUK

Crem One 2B DBPP (pre production version), ACS Vesuvius DBPP, Izzo Duetto DB, Minima DB, Lelit Bianca Prototype DBPP (paddle flow control), Lelit Mara X Prototype, BTC Machines: Roasters: Amazon Dalian 1kg Drum Roaster, other failed roasters: Grinders: Ceado E92, Niche US and UK, Eureka Atom Speciality 75, Eureka "Blow UP System", VDT Vibration thing: 145kg assorted greens: My reviews at https://coffeeequipmentreviews.wordpress.com/

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19 hours ago, mctrials23 said:

Not sure as every site that sells its seems to use different pictures and different descriptions that don't match half the time!

Seems to include the paddle, pressure gauge and the gubbins to actually control the flow based on BBs description. 

Would you say overall that its improved the quality of the coffee you get from your machine?

@mctrials23 I had a quick look on the Internet for other companies selling the Lelit Kit . The only place I could find was the Espresso underground one . They are now selling it at £295.85 . So if you have found it within £20 of the £179 I paid for the Profitec one can you supply any links to the website . It would be helpful to others considering buying the kit ..

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45 minutes ago, Nicknak said:

@mctrials23 I had a quick look on the Internet for other companies selling the Lelit Kit . The only place I could find was the Espresso underground one . They are now selling it at £295.85 . So if you have found it within £20 of the £179 I paid for the Profitec one can you supply any links to the website . It would be helpful to others considering buying the kit ..

Its just on the BellaBarista website.

The description reads: 

Quote

Complete paddle kit as supplied by Lelit which include the paddle, paddle kit, pressure gauge and grub screw.

 

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26 minutes ago, mctrials23 said:

Its just on the BellaBarista website.

The description reads: 

 

Thanks it will be useful for people to know that the Lelit Full kit is available on BB for £199 plus postage .. I just realised it was you that had the leaky Minima beta that you bought through  DC that was sorted out off air .. How is it now ? 

Edited by Nicknak
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16 hours ago, Johey said:

I am going to buy it from BB - just sent them an email because it seems to be out of stock at the moment.

Also watched your reviews on YT.

I understood how to use it with pressure profiling but it must also be possible to set the paddle to a position with a similar flow rate as any “standard” machines. Just wonder how to find this position.

If I cannot use this machine with a fixed paddle position and getting the same result as with any other machine I think it‘s not the right one for me. Playing around with the pressure profiling might be interesting in the future but at the beginning I would like to use it like a standard machine until I get acceptable results.

@johey if you get the chance pop into BB and have a good look around at all the Machines they have . They are very helpful and will spend a lot of time with you discussing all the different pro and cons of the machines . When I went there you can see the different level of finish  of them .

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19 minutes ago, Nicknak said:

Thanks it will be useful for people to know that the Lelit Full kit is available on BB for £199 plus postage .. I just realised it was you that had the leaky Minima beta that you bought off DC that was sorted out off air .. How is it now ? 

Just an important correction, he didn't buy it from me...he collected it from my home and paid ACS directly. He purchased it from ACS. The machine was due to be sent back to ACS and stripped for parts, which would have been criminal if someone wanted it for I think £400 or £450, which was much less than it cost to build, but about the same cost as ACS shipping it back to Italy and reusing the parts.

I tried to do someone a favour by persuading Paolo not to scrap it but to allow a forum member to have a very cheap machine....It was not leaky at the time of sale, but developed a leak after a year and has been sorted out with my help.

Of course recent events make me not want to do any more favours for forum members in case it gets misinterpreted...I also didn't take a single penny from the sale.

Edited by DavecUK

Crem One 2B DBPP (pre production version), ACS Vesuvius DBPP, Izzo Duetto DB, Minima DB, Lelit Bianca Prototype DBPP (paddle flow control), Lelit Mara X Prototype, BTC Machines: Roasters: Amazon Dalian 1kg Drum Roaster, other failed roasters: Grinders: Ceado E92, Niche US and UK, Eureka Atom Speciality 75, Eureka "Blow UP System", VDT Vibration thing: 145kg assorted greens: My reviews at https://coffeeequipmentreviews.wordpress.com/

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2 minutes ago, DavecUK said:

Just an important correction, he didn't buy it from me...he collected it from my home and paid ACS directly. He purchased it from ACS. The machine was due to be sent back to ACS and stripped for parts, which would have been criminal if someone wanted it for I think £400 or £450, which was much less than it cost to build, but about the same cost as ACS shipping it back to Italy and reusing the parts.

I tried to do someone a favour by persuading Paolo not to scrap it but to allow a forum member to have a very cheap machine....It was not leaky at the time of sale, but developed a leak after a year and has been sorted out with my help.

Oh yes I remember now , you have posted the above several times .. quick cut and paste 👍I have amended my post to bought through you . Never suggested it was leaky when you past it over to him ... I read the thread and remember  the scientific conclusion that wasn’t shared .

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I feel like I should put that in my signature now!

Dave was literally just a tester for ACS and I subsequently purchased it from ACS and collected the machine from Dave.

Its all working perfectly now thanks to Dave who has repeatedly gone above and beyond to help me (and plenty of others) diagnose and fix it. Not aimed at you @Nicknak but I feel some people on here take Daves desire not to see products badmouthed unfairly as him having a vested interest in a product.

Anyway, back on topic.

@DavecUK  Is there any reason you would use the lelit one over the protitec/ECM one beyond a preference for the paddle design? I understand that you haven't tried the profitec one but you might have some knowledge of it.

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I guess they both function the same .. a needle possibly tapered moving up and down in a hole to restrict or open the flow of water .. If ever I get the time I might take mine apart and make one . 

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19 minutes ago, mctrials23 said:

@DavecUK  Is there any reason you would use the lelit one over the protitec/ECM one beyond a preference for the paddle design? I understand that you haven't tried the profitec one but you might have some knowledge of it.

It's a question that's tricky to answer. I have not inspected, tested or used the Profitec/ECM device. When I chatted to Michael (who owns ECM) I mentioned about sending me one to have a look at, I was going to remind him, but he is probably super busy right now.

So in fairness, it may be excellent, it could be as good, better or worse than the Lelit device....I simply don't know. The one thing I do know is that the Lelit device fits the Minima perfectly and works perfectly on the Minima. That's not to say the ECM one won't, just that I have not tried it. So on that basis, I can recommend the Lelit for the Minima as a "tested OK by me" device and it's on the Minima at the moment.

I have also given maintenance recommendations and the procedure for it as well as how to fit it on the Minima (video)

Hope that helps.

 

P.S. I think your Minima has a group Gauge already, so you don't need that part of the Lelit kit, which should save you a fair bit of money and hassle..

Edited by DavecUK

Crem One 2B DBPP (pre production version), ACS Vesuvius DBPP, Izzo Duetto DB, Minima DB, Lelit Bianca Prototype DBPP (paddle flow control), Lelit Mara X Prototype, BTC Machines: Roasters: Amazon Dalian 1kg Drum Roaster, other failed roasters: Grinders: Ceado E92, Niche US and UK, Eureka Atom Speciality 75, Eureka "Blow UP System", VDT Vibration thing: 145kg assorted greens: My reviews at https://coffeeequipmentreviews.wordpress.com/

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10 minutes ago, DavecUK said:

P.S. I think your Minima has a group Gauge already, so you don't need that part of the Lelit kit, which should save you a fair bit of money and hassle..

Thanks Dave, I thought that might be your answer. The difference in price is not enough to really make much difference however I prefer the paddle design on the lelit. 

I guess my next question is: do you think it is a worthwhile upgrade to the minima. Do you still use it much or is the minima currently off the counter while you test other machines?

p.s I don't currently have a pressure gauge on the minima. We did speak briefly about this when you were helping me with the leaking boiler but I never got around to ordering one. 

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27 minutes ago, mctrials23 said:

Thanks Dave, I thought that might be your answer. The difference in price is not enough to really make much difference however I prefer the paddle design on the lelit. 

I guess my next question is: do you think it is a worthwhile upgrade to the minima. Do you still use it much or is the minima currently off the counter while you test other machines?

p.s I don't currently have a pressure gauge on the minima. We did speak briefly about this when you were helping me with the leaking boiler but I never got around to ordering one. 

Ok then your group is not custom drilled which means a gauge from anyone will look to the left a bit...as long as you don't mind then the Lelit one should work fine. All production Minima with gauges have had custom groups to facilitate a straight gauge. The Minima was indeed of the counter whilst I tested and managed to break a prototype, so it's back on the counter now awaiting the prototype to come back from full manufacturer post mortem.

Yes, I do believe it's a worthwhile upgrade..as otherwise you need a new machine to do profiling

  • Gives you the ability to have a variable gicleur size, you just choose the flow rate you want and leave the paddle there
  • It allows you to do the full creative range of profile that a Bianca does (except the Bianca does allow for a bloom phase)
  • When/if a bloom phase is programmed into the Minima Gicar unit (costs lots of money to pay Gicar to do it)...then the firmware could be upgraded

Not all coffees benefit from profiling, not all profiles work well for all coffees....but it's fun and extends the creative coffee making process.

 

In the interests of transparency Lelit pay me 1 million euros for each flow control device sold...no just kidding...they don't pay me anything. In fact I am surprised they don't excommunicate me for recommending it on competitor machines ;)


Crem One 2B DBPP (pre production version), ACS Vesuvius DBPP, Izzo Duetto DB, Minima DB, Lelit Bianca Prototype DBPP (paddle flow control), Lelit Mara X Prototype, BTC Machines: Roasters: Amazon Dalian 1kg Drum Roaster, other failed roasters: Grinders: Ceado E92, Niche US and UK, Eureka Atom Speciality 75, Eureka "Blow UP System", VDT Vibration thing: 145kg assorted greens: My reviews at https://coffeeequipmentreviews.wordpress.com/

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In the interests of transparency Lelit pay me 1 million euros for each flow control device sold...no just kidding...they don't pay me anything. In fact I am surprised they don't excommunicate me for recommending it on competitor machines
A sale is a sale & while the profit margin may not be as great, neither is the cost of assembly!


Laissez les bons temps rouler

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18 hours ago, DavecUK said:

Ok then your group is not custom drilled which means a gauge from anyone will look to the left a bit...as long as you don't mind then the Lelit one should work fine. All production Minima with gauges have had custom groups to facilitate a straight gauge. 

Custom drilled = remedial machining to straighten a wonky hole.

Do ACS source their groups from the scrap bin?

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2 hours ago, ashcroc said:

A sale is a sale & while the profit margin may not be as great, neither is the cost of assembly! emoji16.png
 

I should ask for commission...then go take that world cruise :)

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Crem One 2B DBPP (pre production version), ACS Vesuvius DBPP, Izzo Duetto DB, Minima DB, Lelit Bianca Prototype DBPP (paddle flow control), Lelit Mara X Prototype, BTC Machines: Roasters: Amazon Dalian 1kg Drum Roaster, other failed roasters: Grinders: Ceado E92, Niche US and UK, Eureka Atom Speciality 75, Eureka "Blow UP System", VDT Vibration thing: 145kg assorted greens: My reviews at https://coffeeequipmentreviews.wordpress.com/

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I ordered the Lelit paddle kit from espresso underground back when it was £163. This was around the 24th September. The valve arrived without the paddle or pressure gauge on the 21st October. I'm told the paddle and gauge will be with me next week. When I ordered it Peter at espresso underground wasn't aware Lelit had split the products and of course now things are more expensive.

So far I've been using a cloth to just turn the valve by hand which hasn't allowed me the best control but it is a worthwhile upgrade. If there is flow the pressure will rise to 9 bar over time, with better control (with the actual paddle) I could probably adjust down from a higher flow rate to a lower to keep pressure low and somewhat stable for a while but with the control I have now the pressure fluctuates between 2-4 bar as I slowly wiggle the valve open and closed (fluctuations will much easier to control with the paddle installed vs twisting the valve with a cloth). I wait for the beading to cover the surface of the basket and collect in the centre before opening the valve and letting it go to full pressure then start closing it for the last 10 grams of the shot. To get down to 6 bar I have to close the valve completely so there is no more flow going into the puck. I'm getting sweeter and more balance shots with the coffee I've used so far and I can't wait to get the paddle next week and start using it properly. 

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ACS Minima (Beta) -- Reskinned Ceado E8, Niche Zero --- Gene Cafe CBR101 with Dimmer Mod and Bean Mass Probe

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I ordered the profitec one from BB in the end. Just seemed easier and better value than the Lelit one. So far, the two shots I have pulled with it have been better than usual. I am nowhere near getting the hang of it yet as I seem to get no flow and then when I turn it up to try and get a low pressure pre-infusion it seems to just climb up to full pressure albeit quite gradually. I assume this is due to the control coming too late in the system in order to be very responsive. Basically I will need to get better at identifying roughly how to operate the paddle to get my desired pressures without just reacting to the gauge change. 

That being said, its immediately produced better shots than before even though I am awful with the paddle control. The slower ramp up is definitely making a difference. Will report back once I have mastered it a little more. 

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24 minutes ago, mctrials23 said:

I ordered the profitec one from BB in the end. Just seemed easier and better value than the Lelit one. So far, the two shots I have pulled with it have been better than usual. I am nowhere near getting the hang of it yet as I seem to get no flow and then when I turn it up to try and get a low pressure pre-infusion it seems to just climb up to full pressure albeit quite gradually. I assume this is due to the control coming too late in the system in order to be very responsive. Basically I will need to get better at identifying roughly how to operate the paddle to get my desired pressures without just reacting to the gauge change. 

That being said, its immediately produced better shots than before even though I am awful with the paddle control. The slower ramp up is definitely making a difference. Will report back once I have mastered it a little more. 

Did you have a look at how to lubricate it and maintain it before you installed it...take any photos of it before installation? Anything you can share with us.

it will need lubrication and maintenance.


Crem One 2B DBPP (pre production version), ACS Vesuvius DBPP, Izzo Duetto DB, Minima DB, Lelit Bianca Prototype DBPP (paddle flow control), Lelit Mara X Prototype, BTC Machines: Roasters: Amazon Dalian 1kg Drum Roaster, other failed roasters: Grinders: Ceado E92, Niche US and UK, Eureka Atom Speciality 75, Eureka "Blow UP System", VDT Vibration thing: 145kg assorted greens: My reviews at https://coffeeequipmentreviews.wordpress.com/

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