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Please, don't make me laugh.   Versalab has a pre-breaker conical burr, so they can use a lower Wattage motor- multiplied with belts= cheaper, in this world everything is related to costs, cheaper is better to any business. The grinds are a bit better from the pre-breaker, but they are using a traditional italian  flat burr set, that does holy moly fines, in the style of Mazzer SJ, or Ceado, or Compak.

 

Ek43, Mazzer ZM, Mahlkonig Guatemala SB, Guatemala Lab, Guatemala k22,  Mahlkonig Kenya, Favorite 2A/2AT, Zwanger grinder and many more don't suffer from the effect you are describing (because they have a bean feeder=augur-burr carrier- and because they have vertical burrs). The high speed evacuates the coffee fast so it doesn't change grind size towards the end.

As for your "beloved" Versalab, you can see this video that shows your theory is false:

 

Edited by Zwanger

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I should've been clearer, my bad, by everything else I meant all the tilted gravity fed flat burr grinders. Versalab's concept is good imho, execution was shit, Frank's versions are what it should've been.

 

Non gravity fed / auger fed, vertical burr arrangements of course work well as the burr chamber never gets full.

 

As for burrsets, that's a different ball game altogether, fit a shit burr set in a good grinder and everything suffers (and vice versa).

 

Btw what is the video supposed to show?

 

T.

 

 


Espresso: Londinium L1, ZR-71 grinder

Photography: Flickr

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If it's an original Versalab of course it will, the motor on that often stalls even if you slowly pour in lighter roasts. The way to test for the effect I was talking about is different and you can only really do it on grinders which can run with a dose dumped in (so not on the Versalab).

T.


Espresso: Londinium L1, ZR-71 grinder

Photography: Flickr

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Versalab is the only grinder which works around it by having a double burrset, one for prec-crushing which feeds the second, proper burrset. Everything else on the market suffers from the coarsening grind effect.

 

T.

Interesting! So you'd say none of the tilted flat burrs produce a grind as good as high quality hopper fed flat burr grinder... Let's say like Anfims, Mahlkonig or Compaks? So their selling point is just that they can be single dosed with zero retention not grind as well as hoppered commercial grinders?

 

I guess this would be easy to resolve if Monolith or eg1 owners/users could share the experience of comparative grind quality. @mildred @coffeechap?

 

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Sage Duo Temp - La Cimbali 6/S A 64mm flat burr + numerous projects: Sunbeam, Ascaso, Gaggia

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Please, don't make me laugh.   Versalab has a pre-breaker conical burr, so they can use a lower Wattage motor- multiplied with belts= cheaper, in this world everything is related to costs, cheaper is better to any business. The grinds are a bit better from the pre-breaker, but they are using a traditional italian  flat burr set, that does holy moly fines, in the style of Mazzer SJ, or Ceado, or Compak.

 

Ek43, Mazzer ZM, Mahlkonig Guatemala SB, Guatemala Lab, Guatemala k22,  Mahlkonig Kenya, Favorite 2A/2AT, Zwanger grinder and many more don't suffer from the effect you are describing (because they have a bean feeder=augur-burr carrier- and because they have vertical burrs). The high speed evacuates the coffee fast so it doesn't change grind size towards the end.

As for your "beloved" Versalab, you can see this video that shows your theory is false:

 

So in your view flat burr single dosers should always be horizontally mounted? If so I wonder why the prominent ones have gone for tilted versions.

 

Also what about the Mythos? It's mounted at a tilt but is it augur fed? How does it perform when single dosed?

 

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Sage Duo Temp - La Cimbali 6/S A 64mm flat burr + numerous projects: Sunbeam, Ascaso, Gaggia

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Why is everyone obsessed about the physics and ignore the taste? I don’t care if it’s stones that are turning in some black box or if it’s some super engineered unobtainium self sharpening razor sharp laser cutter, I just want a damn good tasting cup in the morning.

This is what happened with Niche, people got carried away with numbers and that’s where we got to... let’s not do that mistake again, shall we?

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Why is everyone obsessed about the physics and ignore the taste? I don’t care if it’s stones that are turning in some black box or if it’s some super engineered unobtainium self sharpening razor sharp laser cutter, I just want a damn good tasting cup in the morning.

This is what happened with Niche, people got carried away with numbers and that’s where we got to... let’s not do that mistake again, shall we?
I completely agree with you. In fact its what I think when I see a number of discussions taking place. I am asking these technical questions because i can't buy whatever I like and just try it. I will either have to save up for something I am sure of or rely on others' experiences.

I'd like the taste of a flat burr grinder bit from a single doser. I just can't afford the ones on the market. So am thinking of putting my own together lol. Sounds ambitious I guess. But not much to lose. I am talking a lot about grind particle size distribution or consistency because from experience I feel this is what has a huge affect on taste.

The ek43 is a unimodal grinder and people rave about the taste. From my limited tasting I have mostly preferred the taste of flats over conics (big caveat I have tried the giant conics yet).

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Sage Duo Temp - La Cimbali 6/S A 64mm flat burr + numerous projects: Sunbeam, Ascaso, Gaggia

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I still don't understand what's meant by unimodal / bimodal? All grinders are unimodal, except in espresso range where there seems to be a secondary peak of fines?

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38 minutes ago, the_partisan said:

I still don't understand what's meant by unimodal / bimodal? All grinders are unimodal, except in espresso range where there seems to be a secondary peak of fines?

That's about it as far as I am aware but it seems to be confused at times by people that just use the words and don't appreciate what they mean. There is also some talk about grind shape comparing conic with flat. However  a grinder manufacturer who posted macro photo's failed to show that clearly in my view.

I intend to make my own grinder as well. It would have been based on Robur burs but I decided to buy a Niche so it will be flat using bits from another grinder at least initially. First thing will be to add a funnel to it to see what mileage there is in big being better than smaller. I should have tried it with the doser on really to see if lack of clumps in that mode happens with the beans I use but I can't see why they should be any different to a funnel in respect to how the grinds come out of the grind chamber.

John

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In Use Sage DB+IMS Shower Screen, Niche. Profitec T64. Others Sage BE, Mazer Mini A, Ceado 37J. Projects Little Gem, Gaggia M7D

:pToo many filter baskets - maybe. For sale when I get round to it. Robur Elect, Ceado 37J, Ascaso i_1,Piccino

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Interesting! So you'd say none of the tilted flat burrs produce a grind as good as high quality hopper fed flat burr grinder... Let's say like Anfims, Mahlkonig or Compaks? So their selling point is just that they can be single dosed with zero retention not grind as well as hoppered commercial grinders? 
I guess this would be easy to resolve if Monolith or eg1 owners/users could share the experience of comparative grind quality. @mildred @coffeechap?
 
Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk
 
 
 
No idea about taste, but they all suffer from the coarsening effect if single dosed. They are typically fitted with fancy modern burrs, so maybe they work better? Ideally you'd want to blind test them, but as they're rather expensive I doubt anyone has ever done that properly.

As for taste trumping technical data, just bear in mind that's subjective as well. I do agree however that what's in the cup should always be the deciding factor. On the other hand most taste reports you get from users are often comparing their fancy new grinder with an entry grinder they had before and often the results are skewed by the "newness" of the kit ie. how expensive it was and how it has to be better.

T.

Espresso: Londinium L1, ZR-71 grinder

Photography: Flickr

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On 12/09/2019 at 20:36, Zwanger said:

Please, don't make me laugh.   Versalab has a pre-breaker conical burr, so they can use a lower Wattage motor- multiplied with belts= cheaper, in this world everything is related to costs, cheaper is better to any business. The grinds are a bit better from the pre-breaker, but they are using a traditional italian  flat burr set, that does holy moly fines, in the style of Mazzer SJ, or Ceado, or Compak.

 

The smaller motor plus belt drive / gearbox results in a smaller grinder. The motors they use may cost a lot more than you think. Depends on ratings, lifetime and quality. The main thing that sets certain aspects of commercial grinders including their size is the motor. These makers can also get what they want - motors that are rated for the job. The grinders would be enormous if they were continuously rated. They then in some cases find they need to fit a cooling fan otherwise the grinder would need to be even bigger.

Using a conic over a flat is interesting because conics tend to generate their own grind feed that is less dependant one the weight of beans above them. This also tends to make them run clear when the beans have all been ground. Flats need centrifugal force. No available burs I am aware of have evolved to be used for weighing in. Pass on what impact that has.

John

-


In Use Sage DB+IMS Shower Screen, Niche. Profitec T64. Others Sage BE, Mazer Mini A, Ceado 37J. Projects Little Gem, Gaggia M7D

:pToo many filter baskets - maybe. For sale when I get round to it. Robur Elect, Ceado 37J, Ascaso i_1,Piccino

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And on the eighth day God got up with a banging headache (as he had been on the piss) and decided to make a coffee but had no grinder, with a puff of smoke suddenly the Devil appeared and said " yo dude  create a grinder with a small cheap Chinese motor with phosphor bronze bearing, plastic gearbox and belts, make it from cheap parts  bro", God sighed and said "whatever" and did so, and then made a coffee of reasonable quality.

Gods partner (of indeterminate gender)
then wandered into the kitchen to see what all the smoke was about, and was happy with this new grinder as the colour matched the toaster and kettle and took little space upon the sacred worktop. For a while all was well with the world, but over time God noticed that his grinder became inconsistent and started to crap out, this displeased god greatly, a darkness descended across land and God thought to himself "what the f********* was I doing"  He thought about the taste and flavour he may be missing, the disposable and environmental impact  of consumer goods that had little or no parts back up or longevity upon his Earth.

God cast out the grinder to landfill (where small animals mistook it as a urinal) and God determined to create a quality grinder, with quality engineering and big flat burrs, and low he  he called it "The Grinder King" and placed its mighty frame on his kitchen worktop. God made a coffee and it tasted soooo much better "soooorted" he said under his breath , he knew that this grinder would not crap out and would live long upon his earth.

Later that day Gods partner (still of indeterminate gender) rocked up with the M&S food shop and said "WTF is that giant B***h"! God shrugged and went to watch the footy mumbling something about cutting the hedge later, and all in the world was good again

 
 

jesus.png

Edited by jimbojohn55
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keep calm and grind flat

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9 hours ago, the_partisan said:

I still don't understand what's meant by unimodal / bimodal? All grinders are unimodal, except in espresso range where there seems to be a secondary peak of fines?

To me every grinder tasted equal before I had shots from a EK43. Those shots are different. Light roasted coffees taste sweeter and more intense. As an EK43 is not well suited to my kitchen I did some research and found that the Mahlkönig ProM has a burr set with a comprable profile (some call it unimodal). I am very happy with the taste of my coffee since.

Yet the ProM is not well suited for single dosing. This is why I preordered the Lagom P64, which has a burr set comparable to my ProM with better alignement and is optimised for single dosing. Of it delivers what they promise, I will be very happy.

Edited by yoshi005
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Faema Lambro - Mahlkönig ProM Espresso - LMWDP #453

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Too me every grinder tasted equal before I had shots from a EK43. Those shots taste diefferent. Light roasted coffees taste sweeter and more intense. As an EK43 is not well suited to my kitchen I did some research and found that the Mahlkönig ProM has a burr set with a comprable profile (some call it unimodal). I am very happy with the taste of my coffee since.
 
Yet the ProM is not well suited for single dosing. This is why I preordered the Lagom P64, which has a burr set comparable to my ProM with better alignement and is optimised for single dosing. Of it delivers what they promise, I will be very happy.
Great you have already ordered it! Would love to hear your feedback. BTW are you in the UK? If so it would be good to know total price for UK buyers.

So what did you have before the ProM and how did it taste different?

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Sage Duo Temp - La Cimbali 6/S A 64mm flat burr + numerous projects: Sunbeam, Ascaso, Gaggia

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Before the ProM I had a Demoka M203 (49mm flat), a Quamar M80 (64mm flat), a Casadio Istantaneo (47mm conical) and a Mahlgut MG-1 (68mm conical). All were ok, but taste was not as intensive and dense and without any bitterness as I knew it from the best coffee shops I had visited. The ProM has its flaws but the taste is sweet, never bitter and and excellent - exactly as it should be in my opinion. This is true for light roasted coffees. I would not use the ProM for dark roasts as those espresso taste too strong and astringent in my opinion.

As I live in Germany I cannot tell you the cost for the Lagom in GBP. To Germany it will be 1595 EUR with SSP burrs including custom and taxes but not including shipping.

 

Edited by yoshi005

Faema Lambro - Mahlkönig ProM Espresso - LMWDP #453

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Wow. That's quite a grinder CV! Very interesting as I like my espresso to be thick and syrupy with longer extraction maybe let's say upto to 60secs. So ek43 style extraction is what I should be trying out.

Could you also answer another v important question. How did you compare the taste of your conical grinders to the flat ones?

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Sage Duo Temp - La Cimbali 6/S A 64mm flat burr + numerous projects: Sunbeam, Ascaso, Gaggia

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I like my shots on the syrupy and on the short side, too. I am not into long coffee shots. My usual recipe is 20g in, 38g out for a double shot.

I like African coffees, and with my conical grinders the fruity notes were emphasized but were lacking sweetness and often tasted bland and sometimes bitter. My ProM Espressi are sweeter, more balanced and never bitter but muting some fruity and acidic notes.

I hope this all makes sense as my English is not that good...

Edited by yoshi005
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Faema Lambro - Mahlkönig ProM Espresso - LMWDP #453

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I like my shots on the syrupy and on the short side, too. I am not into long coffee shots. My usual recipe is 20g in, 38g out for a double shot.
I like African coffees, and with my conical grinders the fruity notes were emphasized but were lacking sweetness and often tasted bland and sometimes bitter. My ProM Espressi are sweeter, more balanced and never bitter but muting some fruity and acidic notes.
I hope this all makes sense as my English is not that good...
Yes it does. Thanks!

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On 12/09/2019 at 21:36, dsc said:

If it's an original Versalab of course it will, the motor on that often stalls even if you slowly pour in lighter roasts. The way to test for the effect I was talking about is different and you can only really do it on grinders which can run with a dose dumped in (so not on the Versalab).

T.

 

Hi Tom,

Of course you are correct with the original Versalab, one that has not been updated with the latest small pulley and double belt drive.

With these latest upgrades it is possible to "run with a dose dumped in" , in fact that is my everyday usage since upgrading.

 

Versalab c.jpg

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Slayer One Group ; Versalab M3/4

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Hi Tom,
Of course you are correct with the original Versalab, one that has not been updated with the latest small pulley and double belt drive.
With these latest upgrades it is possible to "run with a dose dumped in" , in fact that is my everyday usage since upgrading.
 
1802315504_Versalabc.thumb.jpg.2f3b86f82f379bec70ad53be7420421a.jpg
So how would you compare the taste to other top conical and flat burr grinders?

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Sage Duo Temp - La Cimbali 6/S A 64mm flat burr + numerous projects: Sunbeam, Ascaso, Gaggia

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I would say that it is right up there with them.

I have owned several in the past, Mazzer Mini, SuperJolly, Major & Kony, Compak K10 PB, Elektra Nino and LynWeber EG-1, the majority at the same time as the Versalab.

I still have the Versalab.

 


Slayer One Group ; Versalab M3/4

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I would say that it is right up there with them.
I have owned several in the past, Mazzer Mini, SuperJolly, Major & Kony, Compak K10 PB, Elektra Nino and LynWeber EG-1, the majority at the same time as the Versalab.
I still have the Versalab.
 
Wow. Can you say why it remains your favourite? I'm particularly interested in the different types of taste they produce depending on whether they are conical or flat or hybrid.

The Compak is huge conic and the major and eg1 big flats. How did they compare in taste to each other and the taste of the Versalab is like one them or completely different?

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The Versalab is still here because of its ease of use, size and design, and of course my wife likes the look of the Versalab. 😉

I am not the best person to ask regarding differentiating taste profiles, i only know what i prefer.

The differences between the three burr configurations i have personally used / owned have been discussed much more eloquently and in finer detail by others.

I can say that in my personal opinion the Versalab is closer to a large flat than a conical.

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Slayer One Group ; Versalab M3/4

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1 hour ago, EricC said:

I would say that it is right up there with them.

I have owned several in the past, Mazzer Mini, SuperJolly, Major & Kony, Compak K10 PB, Elektra Nino and LynWeber EG-1, the majority at the same time as the Versalab.

I still have the Versalab.

 

Could you say how the EG-1 was like to live with please 

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