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Deidre

Should I buy a used “first run Londinium 1”, or buy new LR?

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I am new to espresso machines, although I have used the Pavoni (with good success). I prefer the more Italian style espresso, yet I don’t often find a great one to be had in most cafes these days. It is time to make the espressos I like at home (& for our guests, as well). I want to avoid future machine upgrades, so my question is, do I go for a used Londinium 1 (interested in one I saw that is advertised as a “first run Londinium 1”... & what exactly does “first run” indicate?) or do I forget the used, save up & buy a new Londinium? Thank you for any insight or guidance you can provide.

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The newer R will have more flexibility with the transducer capability and the impending phone application to adjust pre infusion pressure. But I guess it also depends on price, whether you have a preference for a certain type of roast and whether the adjustability is worth it for you.



Sent from my LYA-L09 using Tapatalk

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Machine - Currently a Londinium R. Grinder - Niche. Tamper/distributor - Puqpress and Pullman Distribution and Big Step Palm Tamper.

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38 minutes ago, Deidre said:

I am new to espresso machines, although I have used the Pavoni (with good success). I prefer the more Italian style espresso, yet I don’t often find a great one to be had in most cafes these days. It is time to make the espressos I like at home (& for our guests, as well). I want to avoid future machine upgrades, so my question is, do I go for a used Londinium 1 (interested in one I saw that is advertised as a “first run Londinium 1”... & what exactly does “first run” indicate?) or do I forget the used, save up & buy a new Londinium? Thank you for any insight or guidance you can provide.

If you are  dark roast loever get the l1 , the adjustable pre infusion isnt gong to have a huge impact or advantage on the kind of roasts you enjoy .

@coffeechap thoughts?

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Medium to medium dark is my roast choice, so far.

What adjustment for preinfusion is tolerated on the Londinium 1, or to what extent could I preinfuse on the L1 as compared to the LR? I would not want to find I had restricted myself, and then needed to upgrade in a year or two, should I then decide I wanted to use a different roast level. (I have preinfused with the Pavoni, using medium dark roast, and like the result.)

Difficult to predict my taste in the future of my espresso making, and therefore difficult to suggest, I suppose, but I ask anyway. 😁

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I'm using a second gen L1 with light beans and get bags of flavour from it - the L1 will give you great results with light and dark roasts.  I have no yearning to upgrade to an LR (yet).  The biggest difference with L1's is that the panels on the original are screwed on whereas the second gen has pop off panels.  There may be other differences that I've forgotten. 

Preinfusion on the L1 is achieved when the lever is pulled down.  Length of preinfusion depends on when you release the lever - that's your only adjustment.  

I guess the answers you'll  get (on the whole) for L1 vs LR will be based on the kit that the respondee owns (nobody wants to be told they have an ugly kid and all that).  

To get the best out of either you will need a good grinder.  Factor in a good chunk of money for this, unless you already have a capable grinder.

 

Edited by working dog
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a grinder a lever and some beans

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43 minutes ago, Deidre said:

 

What adjustment for preinfusion is tolerated on the Londinium 1, or to what extent could I preinfuse on the L1 as compared to the LR? I

Think you're mixing up pre-infusion time and pre-infusion pressure. On the original L I, pre-infusion pressure is set to 1.1 bar. You can't change that. The length of time you allow pre-infusion to take place before releasing the lever is something you can play with up to a point but are in the 5-10 sec range normally. The L R has a rotary pump so the pressure at the puck can be varied but is factory set to 3 bar at the puck but adjustable up to a max 6 bar pressure at the puck. This gives you a great deal of flexibility to play with.

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Londinium-R - EKS43 running SSP Silver Knight burrs

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2 hours ago, working dog said:

I'm using a second gen L1 with light beans and get bags of flavour from it - the L1 will give you great results with light and dark roasts.  I have no yearning to upgrade to an LR (yet).  The biggest difference with L1's is that the panels on the original are screwed on whereas the second gen has pop off panels.  There may be other differences that I've forgotten. 

Preinfusion on the L1 is achieved when the lever is pulled down.  Length of preinfusion depends on when you release the lever - that's your only adjustment.  

I guess the answers you'll  get (on the whole) for L1 vs LR will be based on the kit that the responee owns (nobody wants to be told they have an ugly and all that).  

To get the best out of either you will need a good grinder.  Factor in a good chunk of money for this, unless you already have a capable grinder.

 

Great info, thank you.

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I started out with a Fracino for a few weeks but when the chance came to get a "first run Londinium 1" I jumped at it.

Now, 3 or 4 years later?, I still feel I have no real reason to buy anything else because paired with a Mythos and with my penchant for natural Ethiopian beans it still delivers what I want.

There are still a lot of ways to alter the taste profile but these mostly relate to time and truth be told I have thought of other machines but the bottom line is getting one would only be so that I could experience for myself  any differences.

The simple operation, consistency and overall ease of use are what attracted me in the first place. The ability to play with a fully modded LR would be just that for me.... play. In fact I would probably prefer to get an L1P (or whatever it is called these days)

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15 hours ago, The Systemic Kid said:

Think you're mixing up pre-infusion time and pre-infusion pressure. On the original L I, pre-infusion pressure is set to 1.1 bar. You can't change that. The length of time you allow pre-infusion to take place before releasing the lever is something you can play with up to a point but are in the 5-10 sec range normally. The L R has a rotary pump so the pressure at the puck can be varied but is factory set to 3 bar at the puck but adjustable up to a max 6 bar pressure at the puck. This gives you a great deal of flexibility to play with.

Generally speaking, how long does it take for drips to appear in the cup at 3 bar with normal shot parameters ?  Interested to understand if the higher pressure forces the coffee through quicker


a grinder a lever and some beans

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15 minutes ago, working dog said:

Generally speaking, how long does it take for drips to appear in the cup at 3 bar with normal shot parameters ?  Interested to understand if the higher pressure forces the coffee through quicker

Wil be a result of dose and grind tho 


I write a blog, it's nothing to do with coffee ...

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At 3 bar, my pre-infusion times can vary from 2/3 secs to 10 secs plus. Once lever is released and full pressure applied, shot tends to be complete in 25-35 secs at 1:2 -1:2.5 ratio. 


Londinium-R - EKS43 running SSP Silver Knight burrs

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18 minutes ago, working dog said:

Generally speaking, how long does it take for drips to appear in the cup at 3 bar with normal shot parameters ?  Interested to understand if the higher pressure forces the coffee through quicker

With the same dose it still varies wildly from bean to bean, I suspect mostly as a result from changing the grind. 

I've had anything from 4-5 seconds to 15seconds 


LR, Niche & a steady stream of beans

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1 hour ago, Mrboots2u said:

Wil be a result of dose and grind tho 

Yep - I was thinking 15 in/30 out in 30 seconds.  Probably should've put that rather than normal shot parameters


a grinder a lever and some beans

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Interesting.  Sounds like the pressure (1.1 vs 3(variable) bar) doesn't have a huge impact on the time for the puck to be saturated as I see similar times.

I'm not saying that preinfusion is the same, or that this is the only difference between the machines but has anyone done side by side pours with the same bean on both machines and timed the first drops.  I guess that there aren't many with the space and luxury of having both machines on the bench so its a long shot.

 


a grinder a lever and some beans

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Interesting.  Sounds like the pressure (1.1 vs 3(variable) bar) doesn't have a huge impact on the time for the puck to be saturated as I see similar times.
I'm not saying that preinfusion is the same, or that this is the only difference between the machines but has anyone done side by side pours with the same bean on both machines and timed the first drops.  I guess that there aren't many with the space and luxury of having both machines on the bench so its a long shot.
 
The two machines are almost definately using a different grind to reach similar saturation times.
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Laissez les bons temps rouler

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32 minutes ago, ashcroc said:
1 hour ago, working dog said:
Interesting.  Sounds like the pressure (1.1 vs 3(variable) bar) doesn't have a huge impact on the time for the puck to be saturated as I see similar times.
I'm not saying that preinfusion is the same, or that this is the only difference between the machines but has anyone done side by side pours with the same bean on both machines and timed the first drops.  I guess that there aren't many with the space and luxury of having both machines on the bench so its a long shot.
 

The two machines are almost definately using a different grind to reach similar saturation times.

Correct.


Londinium-R - EKS43 running SSP Silver Knight burrs

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58 minutes ago, ashcroc said:
1 hour ago, working dog said:
Interesting.  Sounds like the pressure (1.1 vs 3(variable) bar) doesn't have a huge impact on the time for the puck to be saturated as I see similar times.
I'm not saying that preinfusion is the same, or that this is the only difference between the machines but has anyone done side by side pours with the same bean on both machines and timed the first drops.  I guess that there aren't many with the space and luxury of having both machines on the bench so its a long shot.
 

The two machines are almost definately using a different grind to reach similar saturation times.

Time for a lie down.  I hadn't considered that 


a grinder a lever and some beans

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I have a 2nd gen L1 and love it. However the old L1 has a vib pump whereas the LR has a rotary. The L1 sounds like someone shaking a biscuit tin with nails in it whereas the LR sounds like a lift. In terms of coffee, I don't need a better machine, but I'd love a quieter machine.


Londinium 1, Pharos, Ceado e37s, Gene Cafe, Aerobie

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I've got a first version L1 (which is what I assume 'first run means? mine was off the second production run end of 2012 but identical to the first run) and am very happy with it. I use light roasts too.

The answer id say depends on price being asked, what you're willing to pay etc. The side panels really aren't an issue, I've taken mine off maybe 3 times since I bought it. It should have had new seals on the piston at least once I'd have thought but check when they were last done and factor that in if its needed. Maybe a new shower screen and seal too and you're good to go.  


Londinium I, Mahlkönig Vario, Hario Skerton, Chemex 1-3 Cup.

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4 hours ago, NickR said:

I have a 2nd gen L1 and love it. However the old L1 has a vib pump whereas the LR has a rotary. The L1 sounds like someone shaking a biscuit tin with nails in it whereas the LR sounds like a lift. In terms of coffee, I don't need a better machine, but I'd love a quieter machine.

Then you need an L1 (old L1-P)  :)

(or multiples thereof , 2 arms=2 levers 🤣)

All this talk of pump noises..

John


Roasters: BB Dalian Amazon 1kg -Power contolled GeneCafe 101- 113Kg of greens - Tonino

Espresso: Londinium L2 - Gaggia G105 - Silvia v3 Mr.Shades PID'-d - Faema E92a2 (Project) - MyPressi Twist - VST baskets / Motta Europa (350/500/750ml) - Torr Ti 58.55 & Goldfinger flat 58.4 TiBlack, Pullman 51.4 - Acaia x2

Grinders: Flats: Compak R120 - NS Mythos plus Conics: Compak K10PB - Lido 3

Brewed: Behmor Brazen - Moccamaster KBGT471 - Aeropress - V60 - Cona model D - Clever - Mizudashi - 8-10 + 6 cup Chemex

Water: BWT Bestmax V Refrac: VST III

and a Puq Press not in a pear tree..

 

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