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Misdescribed burrs: TheEspressoShop.co.uk

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TheEspressoShop.co.uk sold me 'Red Speed Burrs' they claimed were SSP brand in an email I sent seeking clarity on the matter (see screenshot attached)

After receiving the Burrs it was clear they are not SSP because: 

1) they are missing the signature SSP box

2) they are missing the SSP logo on the Burrs themselves (see image attached).

Upon disputing the claim with PayPal because of this misrepresentation, the seller 'reports' me without addressing my claim about the misrepresentation (see attached screenshot).

 

Normally, I would just let it go, but it's a matter of principle to prevent others from doing business with this bad-faith company. 

 

Here is a similar listing:

https://www.theespressoshop.co.uk/us/Fiorenzato-MC-F64-Evo-Red-Speed-Grinder-Burrs-RH-64x37x85mm---400000028/m-4552.aspx

paypalSSPdispute.png

IMG_20190813_115102.jpg

paypalSSPdispute2.png

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I had some issues with these guys when they were known as Espresso Services ordering some IMS bits that came in appalling condition. Very poor customer service and resolution.

 

Reordered from Bella Barista where they (as always) went above and beyond customer service wise and the same items were pristine. 

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Let us know what the outcome is with Paypal. If you haven't already you might need to make clear with them how you can be confident that the burrs are not as described, with reference to photos etc. Good luck with it. 

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They don't look like SSP. I would drop SSP an email asking them if they supply this shop ( they wont't ) but also make them aware that it looks like they are selling SSP burrs under false pretences. 

 

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Posted (edited)

There is a problem with grinder burr market and actually getting genuine OEM burrs, sadly it has always been the case (although it may have grown) and is why many manufacturers are branding the burrs where years ago they didn't. I have a set of genuine brand new  Mazzer Mini E 64mm burrs, but because they are over 15 years old they have no laser branding, but came carded. I used them to illustrate the difference between genuine OEM and non OEM. Even worse, even paying the correct money for the burrs doesn't guarantee they will be genuine.

I remember comparing a so called genuine Kony burr for which someone paid £120 ish for vs a known alternative non OEM Kony burr. The genuine had no laser etching (so perhaps it was NOS from 12 years ago)? Checked under an eyeglass and could clearly see it was not genuine, different cut and grade etc..I told him to get his money back, not sure if he did or not?

Some People say there is no real difference between OEM and non OEM, but there is and many Mazzer grinders with non OEM burrs don't perform as expected, put the right burrs in and they are like a different grinder. I think it's great that Mazzer (like SSP) laser etch them all now. Buy an old ex retail Mazzer on ebay (or other reputable grinder) and you can almost guarantee it will have knock off burrs on it.

Some suppliers have to be fully aware if burrs they sell are not genuine because of how cheap they are...if they are not alerted by that, I think they have some responsibility to at least do some checking to ensure OEM products are being sold.

I've remained largely silent about this area for nearly 2 decades, simply because of the difficulties of discussing such a subject and the lack of people willing to do the work and come forward with photo comparisons of burrs they have bought....so it sits quietly in the darkness with no light shining on it.  Then occasionally a post like this crops up. It gets all the usual attention about legals, right of return, item not as described etc..then is largely forgotten until the next person gets duped.

A shame because a forum is exactly the place where people should share the "knowledge" to ensure others get what they pay for.  Instead it seems that most posts are not about coffee, or what we want to either buy or sell. We have too many areas and divisions on the forum, but an area for the "gotchas" of coffee is perhaps needed containing the poor experiences and warnings we all would have liked to had.

 

P.S. I wouldn't have stuck fraud! right in the title or even referred to it quite that way....that's just me personally. Having been accused of fraud (by a few twats over the years) it can be quite unpleasant when it's not true. It's always better to take the route of unconscious ignorance, because you can't prove otherwise.

Edited by DavecUK
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Posted (edited)

Thank you all for your replies, the moderators have helpfully toned down my title, though I do believe it was accurate.

Upon further review, I also found a clear self-contradiction that I did not notice on my initial purchase: THEY THEMSELVES DO NOT THINK THEY ARE SSP (SEE IMAGE BELOW). 

Really, all they needed to do was offer to pay for the post back and apologize, but instead they went the post factual denial route. Pity.

 

 

https://www.theespressoshop.co.uk/en/Mazzer-Super-Jolly-Red-Speed-Burrs-RH-64x37x85mm/m-4248.aspx

paypalSSPdispute3.png

Edited by aris

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Out of interest how much are the equivalent burrs from SSP


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I have since found a different supplier, which wasn't trivially easy, actually, and it seems they should be closer to $235, a red flag had I known, but honestly $110 seems expensive to me already!

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You can order them direct from SSP, South Korea. 

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It's certainly fair of you to rely on the email re whether they're SSP or not, and their response on PayPal is shitty*, but from experience I feel like this fell apart when you jumped straight to raising a claim with PayPal. Did you email back and explain why they're not SSP and as such would be entitled to return them? Carelessness, ignorance and mistakes are allowed, and it could be that's why you were told they were SSP instead of an attempt to mislead you. In all likelihood you were entitled to return them even without the misdescription...that's true as a matter of law if you were within the EU and I suspect as much even though you appear to have had them delivered to a US address. As a general rule, give the vendor a chance to put things right – particularly when dealing with an otherwise reputable company – before jumping to using dispute resolution practices like PayPal offer which we know are often abused by less honest folk than yourself. 

* yes – this is where they should have simply highlighted the return option

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Posted (edited)

Yes, my counter to that would be: 

1) I feel it is VERY difficult to make this mistake in good faith. 

2) I am familiar with PayPal's process and know that it requires messaging the seller first (which is the initial message you see), before PayPal is involved, so this is in effect the same thing as what you are suggesting, but saves me a step in case my presumption from 1) is correct

As it stands, 1) seems very clearly to be the case, but I don't disagree with the sentiment of your statement. 

 

9 minutes ago, catpuccino said:

It's certainly fair of you to rely on the email re whether they're SSP or not, and their response on PayPal is shitty*, but from experience I feel like this fell apart when you jumped straight to raising a claim with PayPal. Did you email back and explain why they're not SSP and as such would be entitled to return them? Carelessness, ignorance and mistakes are allowed, and it could be that's why you were told they were SSP instead of an attempt to mislead you. In all likelihood you were entitled to return them even without the misdescription...that's true as a matter of law if you were within the EU and I suspect as much even though you appear to have had them delivered to a US address. As a general rule, give the vendor a chance to put things right – particularly when dealing with an otherwise reputable company – before jumping to using dispute resolution practices like PayPal offer which we know are often abused by less honest folk than yourself. 

* yes – this is where they should have simply highlighted the return option

 

Edited by aris

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6 minutes ago, catpuccino said:

 As a general rule, give the vendor a chance to put things right – particularly when dealing with an otherwise reputable company – before jumping to using dispute resolution practices like PayPal offer which we know are often abused by less honest folk than yourself. 

* yes – this is where they should have simply highlighted the return option

Early this year the instantaneous electric water heater in my mums Annex failed. I purchased another one and fitted it after ascertaining the fault which was a single faulty high amperage microswitch. I phoned the company that makes them to explain what I had found and the fact that the heater is in two parts and the failed microswitch was on the second heater which was NOT connected to the neon "on" indicator. This meant that the heater looked like it was switching on and off correctly, but one heater was always energised....quite dangerous. Fortunately the single limit stat was tripping before a fire....imagine though if that had failed.

Their response was that it wasn't covered under warranty, they couldn't send (or sell) me spares or replace it etc.. etc.. You see they had heard "blah blah blah unhappy want restitution", not what I was saying which was to feedback something to help them and future customers. I explained I didn't want anything, was simply trying to help and feed back something technically useful. This time they heard me, the attitude changed and they also send me the entire pressure assembly free of charge (even though the unit was no longer under warranty and they didn't supply spares). Thanked me and said at least I would have a spare unit....if the other one ever went faulty.

It seems it can quickly get adversarial by accident when it usually doesn't need to....then both sides end up losing.

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I get quite a lot of stuff from them, they aren't bad guys - from the later response  you've screengrabbed it seems like they said they were SSP without really knowing or understanding what SSP meant which is poor, and I think reasonable grounds for you to return them.

If you're still in communication, maybe email and explain what SSP burrs are and you wanted them specifically - they said they were SSP when they aren't, so you'd like to return them?

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6 minutes ago, jeebsy said:

from the later response  you've screengrabbed it seems like they said they were SSP without really knowing or understanding what SSP meant which is poor

This is my feeling. LIke @jeebsy I've had good experiences with them too (not just buying, but returns and faulty swaps) and while I see your point @aris 1) that it does seem unlikely, I'd only say that's true if you happen to have had your first line customer service enquiry dealt with someone who actually knows what to look for beyond what the website description might suggest...and that's not often the case. I buy a lot of vintage mechanical watch parts and pieces – if I had a penny for every time something was honestly misdescribed because they're specialty items that are hard to identity....

Also 2) might be practical, but my point was along the lines of what @DavecUK described...going straight via PayPal puts a combative stance on things, especially when you start using words like fraud.

At the end of the day you bought something but didn't receive it so there's nothing complicated about the issue. Doubtless this will be resolved in your favour :) 

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Per this group's recommendations, I will message them directly via email in the hopes that reason prevails, stay tuned. 

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I have to say I’ve ordered lots of bits and bobs for my Pavonis through them. Excellent service, a bit expensive, but no complaints yet.

 

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Posted (edited)

The more I reflect on it, the stranger I feel it is that such a specialist would both appear 1) not to know who SSP is on their QA section (while understanding burr coating, mind you) and 2) confirm that it is SSP in an email- where even if a trainee didn't know what that meant, would ask someone that did (of which there would be several at such a specialist shop). 

 

I'd like to be as patient and well tempered as you lot appear to be, but to me this screams of someone who thought that the person on the other side would never know the difference due to the coating similarity and didn't react well to being called on it. 

 

I could be wrong, but I think some are making some very generous assumptions to really think their explanation and reaction is innocent. 

Edited by aris
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I do agree with you@aris - what they did is certainly not right, deserves an apology to you and should’ve been handled much better. After all, you are the customer!

Who knows what happens inside those companies, their staff.... do they really know their products given the size of their stock list?

Regardless, you’ve pointed out with evidence that them, as a company, have contradicted themselves by saying to you that they are SSP burrs but answering a customer on another public instance that they - or st lest the person who replied to it, doesn’t even know what they are. The fact they said to you they were and it simply isn’t, to me, should be a simple matter of a misunderstanding, a swift return and an apology. After all, a returning and happy customer is worth far more than the one they never comes back.

Whether it was a naive mistake on their part or not, it’s irrelevant. It should’ve been handled better all together.

For a lot of us here however, and a lot of the Pavoni users, they are a go to destination for the UK and worldwide owners. I follow other Pavoni groups and am yet to hear a horror story from them. Hopefully this was a one off, and I hope you settle this soon.



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8 hours ago, aris said:

I could be wrong, but I think some are making some very generous assumptions to really think their explanation and reaction is innocent. 

I certainly wasn't, all I was recommending is that you treat it as such to get it resolved in a pleasant easy manner and not let it get adversarial. Next time you buy something it may change your decisions about retailer you use. The other thing is that this is a result of the online economy and the driving down of costs in the supply chain...consumers buying mainly on cost. This sort of race to the bottom is probably set to stop at some point and an online companies' customer service will become important. At the moment this isn't always the case. e.g people still buy from Crappy Italia, no matter what you say and often it's well I had no problems....which is great until you do get a problem...then you wish you had never purchased a machine from them.

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, DavecUK said:

 The other thing is that this is a result of the online economy and the driving down of costs in the supply chain...consumers buying mainly on cost. This sort of race to the bottom is probably set to stop at some point and an online companies' customer service will become important. At the moment this isn't always the case. e.g people still buy from Crappy Italia, no matter what you say and often it's well I had no problems....which is great until you do get a problem...then you wish you had never purchased a machine from them.

Yes, I think this is accurate, though in this case they were a first page Google result for these Burrs, the only ones I initially saw to have them available, and had the appearances of legitimacy.

 

I am not claiming they sell all fake wares btw, just that they got over their skis on this one and that the likely cause was greed. There are some corner cases with very low probability that it was an innocent mistake - but in those cases I would expect an apology and correction. 

 

As of this writing, my latest email, written in response to reactions on this thread, has been ignored. It has only been 24 hours or so, however. 

 

 

Edited by aris

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Posted (edited)

Update: SSP has confirmed that T.E.S. is NOT a distributor of SSP burrs. 

On another note, I would like to take this opportunity to show that I am not some crank who only posts negative stuff. I noticed that Decent is a forum sponsor, and I think they represent the perfect juxtaposition to this customer service experience. 

Decent Espresso and John, the owner, are amazing - going above and beyond at all times to help and generously give to their customers.

These are two different management styles and I can tell you which almost certainly all of us would prefer doing business with. 

So here is my promo for John and his company (no, I have no financial interests in it whatsoever). 

Cheers guys and thanks for listening/commenting. 

Edited by aris

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FINAL UPDATE: 

 

They never replied to my email re-explaining the situation, showing them their error, and offering to send them back their mis-labeled burrs on their label. 

SSP has also been notified and confirmed that they are not their burrs, nor is TES a distributor. 

At this point there is no innocent explanation left, and they have proven through inaction not to be acting in good faith or to be a trustworthy company. 

I would call them a fraud, and I do not think that is hyperbole. 

 

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Are you in the USA I noticed dollar pricing. If you have asked them for a refund and been refused (unsuprising if they have shipped overseas), you won't be covered by our distance selling rules it might be best to see if the cc company/paypal can do anything as an item "significantly not as described". So go back to your credit card company or paypal and you might find it easily sorted with them as they can reverse the payments.

I did assume you were in the UK as I am sure lots of other people did....

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8 hours ago, DavecUK said:

Are you in the USA I noticed dollar pricing. If you have asked them for a refund and been refused (unsuprising if they have shipped overseas), you won't be covered by our distance selling rules it might be best to see if the cc company/paypal can do anything as an item "significantly not as described". So go back to your credit card company or paypal and you might find it easily sorted with them as they can reverse the payments.

I did assume you were in the UK as I am sure lots of other people did....

Yes, I will contest as is and probably win the case via PayPal, but the $110 isn't my biggest concern at this stage. I just want to make sure others on this forum are aware of who they are dealing with and warn future readers. 

 

 

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Posted (edited)
39 minutes ago, aris said:

Yes, I will contest as is and probably win the case via PayPal, but the $110 isn't my biggest concern at this stage. I just want to make sure others on this forum are aware of who they are dealing with and warn future readers. 

 

 

It’s a shame that you have had this experience. A little bit of research prior to purchase would have shown you how much ssp burrs cost and the fact that these were so much cheaper should have raised alarm bells.

i have purchased many items from them without any issues at all so this is surprising.

I don’t quite get why you are referencing decent espresso in this thread, although they may have great service now, their customers were continually delayed in not only  the early days , but even a few years after lunching the campaign, which is hardly efficient and was very frustrating for early adopters

Edited by coffeechap
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