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Dr Forinor

What is meant by 'Espresso profile'?

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I recently purchased beans from a place that narrowed it down by category, "Espresso Profile" and "Filter Profile".

I'm not using filter, so naturally I clicked on Espresso Profile.

What is meant by these though? Are these the same thing as different roasts? 


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guess so.
Been thinking about putting on something like that as well. However, as you're just demonstrating, it can be confusing or misleading.

It's how the world would see coffee decades ago, or at least before Thrid Wave coffee became a thing. Nobody thought of putting lighter roasts through a PF as we do now.
 

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1 hour ago, Hasi said:

guess so.
Been thinking about putting on something like that as well. However, as you're just demonstrating, it can be confusing or misleading.

It's how the world would see coffee decades ago, or at least before Thrid Wave coffee became a thing. Nobody thought of putting lighter roasts through a PF as we do now.
 

Out of curiosity, why would lighter roasts have not been considered for espresso back then? If not, what where lighter roasts being used for? And how recent did all this change happen, the last 10-15 years or so? 

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Posted (edited)
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Out of curiosity, why would lighter roasts have not been considered for espresso back then? If not, what where lighter roasts being used for? And how recent did all this change happen, the last 10-15 years or so? 
Tradition & cultural tastes mainly. It's only really since the rise of third wave that lighter roasts have been used for espresso.
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Laissez les bons temps rouler

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16 minutes ago, Mrboots2u said:

Interesting reads. I'm quickly learning though that there is no right or wrong with any of this stuff. As Scott Rao says "In the end, go with what tastes good, even if the internet disagrees or this year's barista competition finalists did the opposite.  I promise in a year or two the winner will do the opposite of what this year's winner did!" and on the second link: "quality is not subjective" but obviously the taste is. 

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7 minutes ago, Pablo El Beano said:

Interesting reads. I'm quickly learning though that there is no right or wrong with any of this stuff. As Scott Rao says "In the end, go with what tastes good, even if the internet disagrees or this year's barista competition finalists did the opposite.  I promise in a year or two the winner will do the opposite of what this year's winner did!" and on the second link: "quality is not subjective" but obviously the taste is. 

Yep of you look at some of the trend setters in USA , like go get em tiger are darker roasting 

James Hoffman predicted you'd see some roasters move to more developed roasts as a point of difference this year.

 

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Why is the trend more towards darker roasting? Is there a reason?


Home 1 -- Melitta Varianza CSP

Home 2 -- Lido 3 & 2012 Gaggia Classic (modded)

Outside -- Porlex mini (modded) & Aeropress

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1 minute ago, Dr Forinor said:

Why is the trend more towards darker roasting? Is there a reason?

Seems like lighter roasts were soooo last season darling. 

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8 minutes ago, Pablo El Beano said:

Seems like lighter roasts were soooo last season darling. 

As rao says , what is light , compared to what ? 

I want to buy and drink stuff that I either enjoy or is somewhat representative of the info provided by a roaster. I don't really care what argatron or Jeal rating it is...

Yes again  the outer edges if i see a bean or cafe that has super oily beans that are stuck together , experience has taught me that I am not going to enjoy that. But I never go into a cafe or roaster and ask how light is your roast , what is your development time ? 


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Posted (edited)
21 minutes ago, Dr Forinor said:

Why is the trend more towards darker roasting? Is there a reason?

I very much hope it doesn't become a trend, but as you roast darker (not necessarily more developed, I often find the darker roasts I end up with aren't any more soluble, or sweet as the good light roasts) acidity is reduced. Sharp/tart acidity is more likely in a short espresso shot and isn't as much of a problem in weaker filter brews, or much longer espresso shots).

Plus most places sell many times more milk drinks, where a darker roasts aren't overwhelmed as easily & they want a more concentrated shot for larger milk drinks.

Edited by MWJB

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I’ve asked many times in as many ways as I can think of wording it!

What makes “espresso roast”/“filter roast”, “surely it is just roasted”?

”Can a roaster (who differentiates) explain....” etc etc....

So far explanations have been......... well noticeable by their absence!!


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10 minutes ago, Drewster said:

I’ve asked many times in as many ways as I can think of wording it!

What makes “espresso roast”/“filter roast”, “surely it is just roasted”?

”Can a roaster (who differentiates) explain....” etc etc....

So far explanations have been......... well noticeable by their absence!!

Essentially it's pretty simple, it's about threshold of acidity.

A bright bean brewed as a light, but developed, roast can be delicious because of it's bright, juicy berry/stone fruit/citrus flavours (like boiled sweets, or wine gums). At a short espresso shot it might be sharp/tart & few are going to enjoy it.

Roast that same bean to be tolerable in terms of acidity for a short espresso shot and it can be flat, dull, dominated by roast flavour as filter.

Espresso can amplify brightness, darker roasting tames brightness.

 

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4 hours ago, Dr Forinor said:

Why is the trend more towards darker roasting? Is there a reason?

wouldn't say it is,tbh. 

Dark and light ar really subjective terms that most people when they throw then around cant actually define em


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Subjectivity comes from the lack of standardization.

If one sets a personal threshold where light ends and medium begins it's really not that complicated. If you enjoy a certain type of roast level I'm pretty sure you'll find roasters that will deliver.

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2 hours ago, MWJB said:

.... sensible stuff.....

Thanks that makes sense - for those beans that the roaster deems fits that profile. (I don’t know if that means “most beans” or “a few beans”)

 


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Subjectivity comes from the lack of standardization.

If one sets a personal threshold where light ends and medium begins it's really not that complicated. If you enjoy a certain type of roast level I'm pretty sure you'll find roasters that will deliver.
One roaster's dark will be another's medium which will muddy the waters a bit.

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1 minute ago, dev said:

Subjectivity comes from the lack of standardization.

If one sets a personal threshold where light ends and medium begins it's really not that complicated. If you enjoy a certain type of roast level I'm pretty sure you'll find roasters that will deliver.

But light/dark are colour based, not necessarily solubility based (unless at extremes, for the same bean).

Roasters don't roast all beans to the same level (whatever that is), they all vary, even from batch to batch. I agree, that if you find a roaster you like, you're more likely to enjoy more of their output.


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Classification should be more than colour based since most roasters don't even use standardized colour scales. I agree that solubility should count but at the same time I have no problems extracting very light filter roasts, especially those coming from a Loring.

Ambiguous roast descriptions like "we roast to preserve the origin caracter", can be very misleading since it leaves everything up to the roaster. I've had the same coffee, in 2 consecutive years, from the same roaster that was delightfully light one year and disapointgly medium dark the next. This kind of situation makes recommendations quite a challenge.

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16 minutes ago, dev said:

Subjectivity comes from the lack of standardization.

If one sets a personal threshold where light ends and medium begins it's really not that complicated. If you enjoy a certain type of roast level I'm pretty sure you'll find roasters that will deliver.

Standard Based on what though? What roast level , brown outside and green within ? Where is medium brown ? I dont know what roast level i enjoy , i cant quantify it to a roaster, I know what flavours I enjoy and what i try and avoid though .

Extreme version "Hello mr roaster can you tell me what colour the bean is ?

Yes is 12 jeals on the jealometer ( a 2014 forum joke )


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4 minutes ago, dev said:

Classification should be more than colour based since most roasters don't even use standardized colour scales. I agree that solubility should count but at the same time I have no problems extracting very light filter roasts, especially those coming from a Loring.

Ambiguous roast descriptions like "we roast to preserve the origin caracter", can be very misleading since it leaves everything up to the roaster. I've had the same coffee, in 2 consecutive years, from the same roaster that was delightfully light one year and disapointgly medium dark the next. This kind of situation makes recommendations quite a challenge.

So what else should it be ? Solubility  means little to 99.9 % of people buying coffee. 

Again we come back to taste and decent qualifiers, perhaps as opposed to notes that say meyer lemon or Zambango which proabaly mystify and confuse the general coffee buying population. 


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IMO all profiles should prioritize keeping the origin caracter. That being said, an "espresso" profile should be biased towards solubility while a "filter" profile should focus on clarity.


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Posted (edited)
2 minutes ago, dev said:

IMO all profiles should prioritize keeping the origin caracter. That being said, an "espresso" profile should be biased towards solubility while a "filter" profile should focus on clarity.

 

Is that a reply to the question re standardisation or just a general point your making?

If a beans isnt soluble can it have clarity ?

Edited by Mrboots2u

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1 hour ago, dev said:

 I agree that solubility should count but at the same time I have no problems extracting very light filter roasts, especially those coming from a Loring.

You'd have to really under-develop beans to have extraction drop off. I've not noticed Loring roasts be noticeably more soluble, nor any more consistent in flavour.

What I meant was, within the range of beans I see (1st to just into 2nd crack) colour doesn't translate to solubility in a linear fashion. So looking at colour, or solubility, or both isn't very informative. Roasting changes the flavour (nobody brews green beans) to the roaster's preference, in much the same way different water changes the flavour.


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