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Posted (edited)
15 minutes ago, Zwanger said:

At the events  (WOC) he didn't use filters (cause of time). And there is not a huge difference in filtered vs unfiltered. I am not having this conversation again, I know how my coffee is tasting correlated to EY%.

And I went to coffee shops and measured their shots. I got 16% EY espresso, not only in 1 coffee shop but more.

You are completely wrong, a finer grind will just compress the puck when you hit it with water in the brew stage after PI and it will make channeling, the puck will compress. I tried 2 minutes shots, I already tried everything there is. There is a point if you pass it you drop the EY% no matter how much PI you do.

And the taste everyone is saying that you get a bad taste when you "Extract" more out of the coffee, is just an under extraction bitter, salty, sour and it has nothing to do with a higher extraction.

My long pre infusion pucks do not channel. I don't try and do 2 minute shots, I don't know who does. 20 to 30 seconds at low flow max. 

OK You know how your coffee tastes but you can't compare unfiltered and filtered measurements . I did a ton of this about 3 years ago  and you get variance and outliers that  shows why it isn't reliable and comparable to each other 

Lastly I am not trying to make the highest extraction possible. I am trying to Make consistently tasty coffee over the 2to 3 cups I make every day. 

I don't want coffee to be garbage at 19 to 20 percent and good at 25 percent. People don't have the gear and the inclination to do this they will just come to the conclusion the coffee is bad and go back to easy to make commodity stuff. 

It's good there is debate and experimentation but I want that to feed through into real world application,  tastier coffee in cafes and amde accessibly at home. 

Edited by Mrboots2u
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Mrboots2u now I know how you made the posts. Why you post in this topic if you have no interest in ek43, or own one?  The tools used to prepare this coffee in total cost under 1000$ (espresso machine, grinder+burrs, and the rest of the accessories).

 

Second, if there is a 5% variation in measurements (and it's not 5% you can search Socraticcoffee ) then it means in the big coffee shop with good reviews in many cities in Europe I got 16-17% EY on my unfiltered refractometer but in reality I got 15.2-16.15% EY?! Oh! wow, great (sarcasm).

There is another problem in my head. People keep saying over extracted coffee, but for me over extracted means a beverage that has a huge extraction yield. A high extraction yield coffee will not be bitter, sour, salty. The higher the TDS, the richer the mouthfeel, the more complex shot you have.

Over extracting fines, phenol, cellulose, alehyde,  getting that nasty aftertaste doesn't mean a higher extractions, it means an under extraction. You extracted the bad stuff and you skipped the good stuff. Why? Grinder, distribution, dose, profile.

What you think you all guys are chasing when preparing shots? Ratios and shot timers? You are tasting the shots, the better it tastes (one compared to another) the higher EY% it has, but w/o measuring it you are just blind guessing. Refractometer helps a lot,  it should be like a tamper, an item that everyone has.

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Zwager I can't believe you've drawn me in to this as well but anyways here goes

Measurements without a filter are not accurate. Listen to Scott Rao's lecture on extraction measurement, he says that yes you can skip the filter but even then it's finicky to get a near accurate representation of the TDS. It involves quickly pressing the button over and over (VST refractometer) to force it to read quickly. 

You simply cannot compare a filtered measurement to an unfiltered one. And imo if it's something you're going to post online or discuss with others, you can't even compare two unfiltered measurements. 

Just as an FYI the people you're debating this with are some of the most knowledgeable on this forum :)


LR, ZM

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31 minutes ago, Zwanger said:

Mrboots2u now I know how you made the posts. Why you post in this topic if you have no interest in ek43, or own one?  The tools used to prepare this coffee in total cost under 1000$ (espresso machine, grinder+burrs, and the rest of the accessories).

 

Second, if there is a 5% variation in measurements (and it's not 5% you can search Socraticcoffee ) then it means in the big coffee shop with good reviews in many cities in Europe I got 16-17% EY on my unfiltered refractometer but in reality I got 15.2-16.15% EY?! Oh! wow, great (sarcasm).

There is another problem in my head. People keep saying over extracted coffee, but for me over extracted means a beverage that has a huge extraction yield. A high extraction yield coffee will not be bitter, sour, salty. The higher the TDS, the richer the mouthfeel, the more complex shot you have.

Over extracting fines, phenol, cellulose, alehyde,  getting that nasty aftertaste doesn't mean a higher extractions, it means an under extraction. You extracted the bad stuff and you skipped the good stuff. Why? Grinder, distribution, dose, profile.

What you think you all guys are chasing when preparing shots? Ratios and shot timers? You are tasting the shots, the better it tastes (one compared to another) the higher EY% it has, but w/o measuring it you are just blind guessing. Refractometer helps a lot,  it should be like a tamper, an item that everyone has.

I don't own an ek you are right. I had one what 4 years ago for a good period of time. 

Sorry I don't buy into the process socratic coffee use either they are not  rigorous enough in their processes for huge amounts of what they do. 

I'll dip out of this discussion now as it isn't serving the op any good us rattling on  and Ive been in too many of these threads and they go round and round in circles. 

 


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Got any spare popcorn?
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Can you give me some popcorn? Tomorrow I'll post filtered refraction.

PS: if there is "sparkling magic" in the espresso cup that muds the extraction and raises it, how come no matter how many times you refract you get the same value from the same cup with 2 different types of refractometers? This must be magic, the error keeps its numbers.😂😂😂

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Posted (edited)

 

2 hours ago, Zwanger said:

 And to exclude the "you got a cheap refractometer" that doesn't show right values (cause I had this already on Instagram) I pull the same coffee (same roast date-same batch) with my friend (Speedster Idro+ Ek43s aligned with SSP) he uses HM digital refractometer, and we are getting the same values (+- 0.5%).

 

Ciao.

The "+/-0.5%" error margin statement came from you @Zwanger.

Edited by MWJB

“Coffee evokes the most insane reactions in people”, Rene Redzepi.

 

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Refractometers have an error reading accepted (normally 0.2%). And 0.5% refraction +- to a 25-27% value is nothing from my side. If you want lab works then I am not the guy.

Refractions are so you know where to go, they guide you for a better extractions. Seems like you guys really like to flex and show some teeth to new comers with crazy ideas. But it's fine, I am used to it. I believe I must end the off topic.

Don't know if you are allowed to post instagram links, but there it is: 

 

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@Zwanger I love crazy ideas, but if you're going to say something is real & more than an idea, back it up with good protocol.


“Coffee evokes the most insane reactions in people”, Rene Redzepi.

 

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At the events  (WOC) he didn't use filters (cause of time). And there is not a huge difference in filtered vs unfiltered. I am not having this conversation again, I know how my coffee is tasting correlated to EY%.
And I went to coffee shops and measured their shots. I got 16% EY espresso, not only in 1 coffee shop but more.
You are completely wrong, a finer grind will just compress the puck when you hit it with water in the brew stage after PI and it will make channeling, the puck will compress. I tried 2 minutes shots, I already tried everything there is. There is a point if you pass it you drop the EY% no matter how much PI you do.
And the taste everyone is saying that you get a bad taste when you "Extract" more out of the coffee, is just an under extraction bitter, salty, sour and it has nothing to do with a higher extraction.
If over extraction is under extraction, what then is under extraction?
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Laissez les bons temps rouler

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26 minutes ago, ashcroc said:
3 hours ago, Zwanger said:
At the events  (WOC) he didn't use filters (cause of time). And there is not a huge difference in filtered vs unfiltered. I am not having this conversation again, I know how my coffee is tasting correlated to EY%.
And I went to coffee shops and measured their shots. I got 16% EY espresso, not only in 1 coffee shop but more.
You are completely wrong, a finer grind will just compress the puck when you hit it with water in the brew stage after PI and it will make channeling, the puck will compress. I tried 2 minutes shots, I already tried everything there is. There is a point if you pass it you drop the EY% no matter how much PI you do.
And the taste everyone is saying that you get a bad taste when you "Extract" more out of the coffee, is just an under extraction bitter, salty, sour and it has nothing to do with a higher extraction.

If over extraction is under extraction, what then is under extraction?

...missing lines from the script of Airplane?

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“Coffee evokes the most insane reactions in people”, Rene Redzepi.

 

https://markwjburness.wordpress.com/

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...missing lines from the script of Airplane?
Shirley you can't be serious!
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Laissez les bons temps rouler

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Posted (edited)

Get the rock out boys.  Higher TDS means unfiltered, and lower means filtered.

Did 3 pulls, the difference between filtered and unfiltered remains in the same range. The coffee was cooled, stirred and mixed.

For the 7.8 to 7.5 TDS numbers where 13g in 41g out (max volume shot on espresso machine)=  24.6% (unfiltered) vs 23.65% (filtered).

For the 9.4 to 9.2 TDS numbers where 13g in 32g out 23.13 % (unfiltered) vs 22.64 % (filtered)  - this was too coarse grind.

Coffee bag opened yesterday, fresh and machine bought 2 days ago (still don't know it 100%).

A simple look at the bottom of the puck shows how much you extracted out, and what's left. The black stuff is the good stuff, and smells fruity, while the light brown left smells unpleasant.

 

Keep in mind that naturals extract less in EY% numbers in general compared to washed varieties (maybe because the oils, I am not sure).

Waiting your responses, no trolling pls.

IMG_20190830_101903.jpg

IMG_20190830_101652.jpg

IMG_20190830_101249.jpg

IMG_20190830_095812.jpg

IMG_20190830_095255.jpg

Edited by Zwanger

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Posted (edited)
50 minutes ago, Zwanger said:

Get the rock out boys.  Higher TDS means unfiltered, and lower means filtered.

Did 3 pulls, the difference between filtered and unfiltered remains in the same range. The coffee was cooled, stirred and mixed.

For the 7.8 to 7.5 TDS numbers where 13g in 41g out (max volume shot on espresso machine)=  24.6% (unfiltered) vs 23.65% (filtered).

For the 9.4 to 9.2 TDS numbers where 13g in 32g out 23.13 % (unfiltered) vs 22.64 % (filtered)  - this was too coarse grind.

Coffee bag opened yesterday, fresh and machine bought 2 days ago (still don't know it 100%).

A simple look at the bottom of the puck shows how much you extracted out, and what's left. The black stuff is the good stuff, and smells fruity, while the light brown left smells unpleasant.

 

Keep in mind that naturals extract less in EY% numbers in general compared to washed varieties (maybe because the oils, I am not sure).

Waiting your responses, no trolling pls.

IMG_20190830_101903.jpg

IMG_20190830_101652.jpg

IMG_20190830_101249.jpg

IMG_20190830_095812.jpg

IMG_20190830_095255.jpg

I suggest you start another thread with this stuff on as it's not really inline with the OP's question 

For those that want to debate with you perhaps provide a link to the refractometer also.

While your posts are interesting to debate , i do find the tone in which you post a aggressive tbh. 

Debate is good, starting a post with, for me at least,  the tone of wanting conflict not so much.

I don't think either myself or Mark were deliberately trolling , we just don't agree and  or see holes in the process and the gear use, based on our experience. 

Edited by Mrboots2u
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I was expecting way more responses after posting the comparison on filteres versus unfiltered coffees. Earlier you where really chatty but all of a sudden you all went silent mode.

 

For me the exact value of the Ey is not important, as it measures just a tiny part of what is in the cup. But it's a good method to guide you towards better extractions. 24.5 or 25.7 I don't really cares as long as I have the numbers I want and expect. This is the reason I don't use filters on measurements. Good weekend to you all.

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32 minutes ago, Zwanger said:

I was expecting way more responses after posting the comparison on filteres versus unfiltered coffees. Earlier you where really chatty but all of a sudden you all went silent mode.

 

For me the exact value of the Ey is not important, as it measures just a tiny part of what is in the cup. But it's a good method to guide you towards better extractions. 24.5 or 25.7 I don't really cares as long as I have the numbers I want and expect. This is the reason I don't use filters on measurements. Good weekend to you all.

Do you own an Ek43 as it is unclear in the photo with the fear la peppina? I would reiterate what Mrboots2u above has said, this is not so relevant to the OP so start another thread and invite people into your world of nutation. I found nutation was used on my early ek because it could not grind fine enough, I still sometimes use it, but find it creates dead spots due to uneven tamp pressure, but if that is what works for you keep it up. PS no need to be quite so aggressive with the folk on here.

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Starting a post with 'get the rocks out boys' isn’t going to encourage good debate, I’d say. 

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Bringing this back on track a little bit, this morning’s shots have been superb - almost strangely so!

I have had no problems getting sweet, clean and balanced flavours from the EK, but it is less common to get strong tasting and heavier body.

Recipe fairly fixed at 15:45 over 20-30s (time depending on Lord knows what!!)

now I have found some magic this morning!

Anecdotally, I have noticed that shots with a slow and even PI followed by a faster pull are the best...that is just a very hard thing to achieve! Sometimes I notice that the pull flows evenly without any observable channelling and forms the shape of quite a large aerated cone of espresso flowing from the basket.

These are the god shots and I just need to produce them more often :)


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Posted (edited)
44 minutes ago, rob177palmer said:

Bringing this back on track a little bit, this morning’s shots have been superb - almost strangely so!

I have had no problems getting sweet, clean and balanced flavours from the EK, but it is less common to get strong tasting and heavier body.

Recipe fairly fixed at 15:45 over 20-30s (time depending on Lord knows what!!)

now I have found some magic this morning!

Anecdotally, I have noticed that shots with a slow and even PI followed by a faster pull are the best...that is just a very hard thing to achieve! Sometimes I notice that the pull flows evenly without any observable channelling and forms the shape of quite a large aerated cone of espresso flowing from the basket.

These are the god shots and I just need to produce them more often :)


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It’s good to see you are getting there rob, the ek is one of the more challenging beasts out there, however it is also the most rewarding when you get it spot on.

Edited by coffeechap
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Posted (edited)

@Zwanger are you just an antagonist or just rude, I really do not see what was sad about my reply to rob.  I am just not sure if your motives on this thread, whether it’s to stir things up or just act like your forum name less the Z

Edited by coffeechap

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