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Sage Oracle - 8s drop time - cannot get within recommend 9-14 seconds?

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I've been using the Sage Oracle for the last month on factory default settings. 7s pre-infuse time, 30 seconds total extraction. Tried various grind settings from 21 to 25 with different beans and can never increase/slow the drop time above 8s. If I lower the grind too much, the flow intermittently stops or slows right down. I can get 30ml extraction x 2 shot and honey colour crema flow usually between 7-8 seconds drop time. Just curious why the recommended drop time is 9-14 seconds and why I cant get within this range?

 

Only tried various supermarket beans so far including Lavazza Rossa. I'll get round to buying some local freshly roasted beans soon, but would like to confirm if the above sounds normal with Lavazza? Or a workflow/ procedure how to go adjusting pre-infuse and extraction times to get the optimum extraction for the bean whether supermarket or local freshly roasted date.

 

I bought the machine second hand, everything appears to work fine, but wonder if any issue with the machine or inadequate cleans and descales in the past may or may not contribute to the above?

 

Any guidance appreciated or please share your experience with the same machine and supermarket beans, thanks.

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Look for improvements in speed of output by changing from supermarket beans to a good roaster.

 

Plenty of them on the Forum. Do you prefer lighter roasts or bold darker ones?

The Oraclle performs excently with better beans.


Ron 

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Thanks Ron for the quick reply. I certainly intend trying fresh roasted beans but for convenience and cost reasons, was hoping to continue to use supermarket beans from time to time and understand if my experience is normal and if worth adjusting the machine tamp, infuse and extraction time settings etc. Or whether that would be going down a pointless rabbit hole.

 

I'm no connoisseur, my partner and I drink flat whites. We dont have a great experience with bean roasts.

 

TBH, Lavazza Rossa and the Oracle is a big improvement to what we've been used to and when we get the grind right, tastes fine for us. Will be curious to taste the difference when we try better beans.

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Thanks Ron for the quick reply. I certainly intend trying fresh roasted beans but for convenience and cost reasons, was hoping to continue to use supermarket beans from time to time and understand if my experience is normal and if worth adjusting the machine tamp, infuse and extraction time settings etc. Or whether that would be going down a pointless rabbit hole.

 

I'm no connoisseur, my partner and I drink flat whites. We dont have a great experience with bean roasts.

 

TBH, Lavazza Rossa and the Oracle is a big improvement to what we've been used to and when we get the grind right, tastes fine for us. Will be curious to taste the difference when we try better beans.

 

The problem you'll find is that Lavazza beans will grind and extract very differently than freshly-roasted, high quality beans. If Lavazza beans work for you, however, nothing wrong with that -- you can stick with it. I'm confident once you try nicer stuff, you'll find it hard to go back, however! :)


ACS Vesuvius      |      Niche Zero      |      AeroPress      |      Porlex Mini

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I've been using the Sage Oracle for the last month on factory default settings. 7s pre-infuse time, 30 seconds total extraction. Tried various grind settings from 21 to 25 with different beans and can never increase/slow the drop time above 8s. If I lower the grind too much, the flow intermittently stops or slows right down. I can get 30ml extraction x 2 shot and honey colour crema flow usually between 7-8 seconds drop time. Just curious why the recommended drop time is 9-14 seconds and why I cant get within this range?

 

Only tried various supermarket beans so far including Lavazza Rossa. I'll get round to buying some local freshly roasted beans soon, but would like to confirm if the above sounds normal with Lavazza? Or a workflow/ procedure how to go adjusting pre-infuse and extraction times to get the optimum extraction for the bean whether supermarket or local freshly roasted date.

 

I bought the machine second hand, everything appears to work fine, but wonder if any issue with the machine or inadequate cleans and descales in the past may or may not contribute to the above?

 

Any guidance appreciated or please share your experience with the same machine and supermarket beans, thanks.

It's your beans ...

I have the same machine


I write a blog, it's nothing to do with coffee ...

https://rjwinc.wordpress.com

Instagram - rjw_inc

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If you have a Waitrose near you they sell beans from Union with a roast date.


Sage DB, Mazzer Major, Mazzer Mini Doser (decaf), Orphan Espresso Lido 2 hand grinder (chemex)

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If you have a Waitrose near you they sell beans from Union with a roast date.

 

Look for recently-roasted... you'll probably want to tip the majority of the shelf onto the floor to grab at the bags in the back!


ACS Vesuvius      |      Niche Zero      |      AeroPress      |      Porlex Mini

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I've been using the Sage Oracle for the last month on factory default settings. 7s pre-infuse time, 30 seconds total extraction. Tried various grind settings from 21 to 25 with different beans and can never increase/slow the drop time above 8s. If I lower the grind too much, the flow intermittently stops or slows right down. I can get 30ml extraction x 2 shot and honey colour crema flow usually between 7-8 seconds drop time. Just curious why the recommended drop time is 9-14 seconds and why I cant get within this range?

 

Only tried various supermarket beans so far including Lavazza Rossa. I'll get round to buying some local freshly roasted beans soon, but would like to confirm if the above sounds normal with Lavazza? Or a workflow/ procedure how to go adjusting pre-infuse and extraction times to get the optimum extraction for the bean whether supermarket or local freshly roasted date.

 

I bought the machine second hand, everything appears to work fine, but wonder if any issue with the machine or inadequate cleans and descales in the past may or may not contribute to the above?

 

Any guidance appreciated or please share your experience with the same machine and supermarket beans, thanks.

 

They seem to have added similar times to the manuals of other machines fairly recently. I assume they mention ratios - grams of coffee in and grams of shot out but they use ml of shot out. Most people use grams out rather than ml as in practice there isn't much difference. The double basket holds 18g so I would assume that is what the Oracle doses. A double is 60g. A single 30g. Shot time is usually 30sec.

 

What I would be inclined to say is that if you are using 18g in 60g out in 30sec with 7 secs of pre infusion there is no way you will get flow to start as late as they are suggesting what ever beans you are using. The machine is more or less the same as the Dual Boiler except default infusion time it 6 secs. Once the machine comes out of infusion pressure will go farily swiftly up to 9 to 10 bar.

 

What tends to happen is that flow out starts very close to the point where infusion ends but the longer the infusion time is the higher the pressure will go so if you set that to 10secs flow may well start before infusion ends at the sort of ratio mentioned. Decent ratios usually crop up somewhere between 1 to 3 and 1 to 2 in 30secs and personally I don't think anyone will get flow to start at the higher end of the figures Sage have given you and very probably wont reach even 9secs. Play with the pump power and shot time and it may be possible to. Some people do this on a DB by setting the infusion time to greater than the shot time and extend that as well.

 

:exit:When ever this sort of thing crops up people are inclined to say beans. Well I've tasted a number of none fresh roasted beans and haven't had any problems tuning them in. Worse or better depending on how some one looks at it a number of them were run through a Barista Express with the brew pressure going up to 15 bar. The grinder on that is very similar to the one built into the Oracle.

 

I expect some people to comment on that. No point - I have tried a number and they didn't cause me any problems. Even 2kg of the cheapest beans Amazon sell bought to run through a grinder. Taste nvg in my view. I call it a super market taste that I don't think really relates to coffee. Having said that though some fresh roasted beans can have unusual tastes.

 

;)Taste is something else though. One pure supermarket bean was sort of ok but that's a one off. I found that Lavazza beans that are also available preground didn't taste the same out of an espresso machine so only tried a couple. They also do 1kg commercial packs that can't be bought pre ground. One of them was rather nice in the fresh roasted ratio range. Another was best as stated on it's packet 14g in 60g out. I needed to up the 14g and cut back the ratio a bit but still much higher than I usually use.

 

Forget it and enjoy your coffee. You do need to try a range of ratios with any bean though and see which one suites you taste wise. Time can be adjusted as well. I may do that usually by cutting it for a weaker drink for some one but one day a bean may turn up where extending it would be better. Personally I suspect this will usually result in fruit notes that the bean shouldn't have - read that as odd bitterness. It can be obtained from most beans. The taste can also get rather blurred.

 

John

-


In Use Sage DB+IMS Shower Screen, Niche. Others Sage BE, Mazer Mini A,. Projects Little Gem, Gaggia M7D

SageBanner_v01.jpg.a45786743a4eb401969788b45ae7f893.jpg

 

 

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Many thanks John for taking the time to share your experience and thoughts.

 

What I would be inclined to say is that if you are using 18g in 60g out in 30sec with 7 secs of pre infusion there is no way you will get flow to start as late as they are suggesting what ever beans you are using. The machine is more or less the same as the Dual Boiler except default infusion time it 6 secs. Once the machine comes out of infusion pressure will go farily swiftly up to 9 to 10 bar.

-

 

In this video of the Oracle

he demonstrates various drop times for correct, over and under extraction - even as much as 17 seconds drop (thus 10 seconds after pre-infusion)

 

I cannot replicate anything like his 12 secs drop time for correct extraction, my experience is 8s to 9s at most to get 2 x 30ml. Will be interesting to see if a change in drop times when I get round to trying fresh roast beans. You'd think the main variable that determines drop time with this machine is the grind setting regardless of how "fresh" beans are, but I am interested to learn otherwise.

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@Schumy ... I had an Oracle for about three months and it is capable of making very good drinks .. Using freshly roasted beans from the start it was an easy learning curve ..

Sage themselves recommend using freshly roasted beans .

There have been several other Oracle users starting threads on here that have had “Eureka” moments when they have gone from supermarket to freshly roasted beans .. Please give it ago it helps the learning curve .

The Oracle does NOT deliver a set weight , If it has to grind finer the weight will go up in the basket , coarser and it will go down ... As a general rule it will put 20 to 22 grams in the basket ..On a decaf I used it went up to 24g..

If you have time search recent oracle threads ..

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Many thanks John for taking the time to share your experience and thoughts.

 

 

 

In this video of the Oracle

he demonstrates various drop times for correct, over and under extraction - even as much as 17 seconds drop (thus 10 seconds after pre-infusion)

 

I cannot replicate anything like his 12 secs drop time for correct extraction, my experience is 8s to 9s at most to get 2 x 30ml. Will be interesting to see if a change in drop times when I get round to trying fresh roast beans. You'd think the main variable that determines drop time with this machine is the grind setting regardless of how "fresh" beans are, but I am interested to learn otherwise.

 

Yes but he doesn't get 30ml / grams out in 30 sec. The shot is smaller. There is one way that they may be able to arrange for the Oracle to have later flow. Changing the pump power during infusion. The default on the dual boiler is 60%. A shot I just pulled, 13.7g in 37g out and flow started at 8secs with 6 secs of preinfusion. That in my view is more like what people should expect. If they had a bottomless portafilter they would expect the bottom of the basket to wet out close to the point where preinfusion ends but probably shortly after.

 

There may be some beans about from supermarkets etc that wont tune correctly. I'm saying from my use of them that is unlikely and for my sins I have tried a number of them. On Lavazza I found the rosa didn't produce a decent drink where as it did in a french press. The expresso blend the other way round but not really to my taste. Beans from several supermarkets just didn't taste right. One Lidl do an espesso blend wasn't too bad, another hopeless. Some of Lidl's wooden barrel beans were ok. Also some from Whitards - rather expensive none fresh. Also Marks Spencer. ;) Actually the elephant beans from Whitards tasted better than some fresh roasted I bought. I may try those from another roaster at some point. Origin bean's taste does vary according to exactly where they came from. One interesting one was these

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B000SDMFC0/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

 

Fresh roasted can exhibit problems as the get older. Often the grind needs setting finer and finer. I'm currently grinding my beans much finer than I usually do. Combination of how long I have had them and other things that I decided to do to them ;) and wont do again.

 

This video mentions 21g in and end of infusion. Not a good idea to try and get timing from a video but ..

 

 

I suspect most would see 21g in as over dosing. That along with something that is rather unusual about Sage machines might explain how longer times could be achieved. I doubt it though. The DB, Barista Express and I would assume the Oracles all have flow meters in them. These can be used to measure the volume of the shot that is produced and give the same shot size each time the button is pressed. When people tune in the normal fashion they don't work very well at all on a Sage. The reason for this is the valve that limits brew pressure to 9 bar on all but the BE where it's set at 15bar. This dumps water to limit the pressure. For some reason Sage uniquely put the flow meter before this valve. Net effect is that the meter looses it's accuracy as too much water is going out of the valve. They seem to expect people to tune so that the valve scarcely opens. That may be possible if people over dose the basket. When that is done it results in a coarser grind. As grinds expand as soon as water goes in that limits flow. If that didn't happen lots would come out. My view of the Barista Express is that it can only be used with the flow meter. It doesn't have the ability to set a shot time other than manually. Providing I was very careful to limit how high the brew pressure went it did produce consistent shots. I was also over dosing slightly but not by as much as Sage seem to use.

 

So if you want to try that I would suggest increasing the dose in 0.5g steps and tuning for say 1 to 3 at least initially and see what happens. At some point used pucks will probably stick to the shower screen. More in will probably fix that. With normal doses less often fixes that but the actual weight is becomes pretty critical.

 

I haven't actually looked in any of these machines to see where they have put the flow meter but it explains why when in volume mode they work as they do and also a sketch on the web showed that it is in the wrong place. As my DB isn't under warrantee I do intend to look and maybe replumb it to see what happens. I have thought about using my DB over dosed but lots of beans will get wasted sorting it out. It's not the sort of thing that can be sorted out in a reasonable time at 3 shots a day. Once some one is used to using their gear they are unlikely to produce a drink even with a bean they have never used before that must go in the sink unless they just can't tolerate the taste the bean has. Those are the ones where people should try wild variations to see what happens. Much smaller variations otherwise.

 

It's easier to concentrate on taste and brew as most do. Taste is the important thing and some rigid rule wont always get the best out of a bean from the drinkers point of view. Unfortunately the web would have people believe otherwise. Time to flow is just another one that I suspect is aimed at getting a method to use when machines lack a pressure gauge and they over dose as well. Only way to find out is to try it and assume it can have the desired effect. ;) Suppose I could buy another 1kg pack of those Lavazza beans and find out. Not at the moment though but I am tempted.

 

John

-


In Use Sage DB+IMS Shower Screen, Niche. Others Sage BE, Mazer Mini A,. Projects Little Gem, Gaggia M7D

SageBanner_v01.jpg.a45786743a4eb401969788b45ae7f893.jpg

 

 

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Many thanks John for taking the time to share your experience and thoughts.

 

 

 

In this video of the Oracle

he demonstrates various drop times for correct, over and under extraction - even as much as 17 seconds drop (thus 10 seconds after pre-infusion)

 

I cannot replicate anything like his 12 secs drop time for correct extraction, my experience is 8s to 9s at most to get 2 x 30ml. Will be interesting to see if a change in drop times when I get round to trying fresh roast beans. You'd think the main variable that determines drop time with this machine is the grind setting regardless of how "fresh" beans are, but I am interested to learn otherwise.

 

Nope....

Once beans are not fresh not amount of grinding will help.

Try not to stress over a drop time, safe give these visual clues as people are not weighing or using brew ratios. They are trying to make coffee simple to sell their machines.

Under and over extraction or taste imbalance is more a function of ratio of coffee used to espresso made..


I write a blog, it's nothing to do with coffee ...

https://rjwinc.wordpress.com

Instagram - rjw_inc

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