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Hi all,

 

I'm in the market for a new machine. After tonnes of reading forums etc I've changed my mind about 50 times.

 

First I wanted a HX appartamento etc now I have my eyes set on a double boiler.

 

Is it a case where most people who buy a HX machine upgrade to a double boiler in the future or are people happy with there HX machines 10 years on?

 

I want to buy a machine that will last me 10 years so I don't mind going straight for a double boiler so I won't need to upgrade in the future. Or do people recommend to start with a HX to learn and then upgrade.

 

Any advice appreciated.

 

Thanks, Simon.

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Go buy it then. Seems a capable machine


SAGE IS NOT A UPGRADE

 

 

:)

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Re HX happiness: our home machine is a Rocket Evo II, a rotary pump HX. Built like a battleship and we love it, even when we have guests over!

But then I also see the merits of the Minima dual boiler in our roastery, where I prepare work-coffees, test drive new roast profiles on a PF after cuppings and occasionally serve a walk-in customer.

 

Here's a few more things to make your mind up:

 

- daily usage

- how many shots/milk drinks in a row, regularly

- plumbing in

- water filter or bottled water

- accessibility of water tank, if applicable

- footprint, height

- warmup time

 

to be continued...

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A decent HX can be a good machine. It is not all about being able to turnoff the steam oiler. Great if you do not take milk. It a novelty if you do. I have an HX with three litre boiler and providing you use it as you would any domestic machine. , it copes just fine. Built to industrial standards unlike many.

I would ask myself exactly what I want from a machine and build from there

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So you want a Synchronika? If you've got the budget for it and your priorities lie with cosmetics and other things like the joystick steam wands, rotary pumps etc then sure pay the premium for it. If you want to be able to take it to the company you bought it from and pay them to check it over, change seals, descale it etc then buy from Bella Barista or another reputable company local to you and pay the premium for that service too.

 

If I were you and that was my budget I'd be straight in for a Vesuvius direct from ACS but you only get a parts only warranty with them meaning if anything does go wrong you get the parts and pay someone to fix it or do it yourself.

 

The Leilit Bianca is another option with flow profiling ability, though there's rumour the Profitec paddle mod is coming to some ECM machines in the future too so the ECM Synchronika could well have it's only paddle fitted at some point at additional cost.

 

I'm thinking machines you aren't going to need to upgrade from at any point in the future and the Vesuvius ticks that box. The Synchronika might also it depends how deep down the rabbit hole you go. If you don't make multiple drinks at once and you don't want to steam milk then an HX might be fine but I'd always be annoyed at having to flush water to cool the group...one of your concerns was getting a machine that will last you 10 years without wanting to upgrade -- without knowing your circumstance and how they might change it's difficult to say so best to just cover all bases. Maybe in the future you'll want to make multiple milk drinks back to back even if now you don't or vice versa.


ACS Minima (Beta) -- Reskinned Ceado E8, Niche Zero --- Gene Cafe CBR101 with Dimmer Mod and Bean Mass Probe

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Thanks for the replies.

 

If I were to go for HX Machine then it would have to be a rotary with the option to plumb in. I did like the Minima for the price but not being able to plumb in I removed it from my list.

 

I will make 2 or 3 drinks per day all milk based. The thing which I didn't want was the cooling flushes that a HX machine needs.

 

I was set on the Bianca, even got some quotes. I'm located in Ireland so I have no dealer near me where I can see a variety of machines. We do have an ECM dealer here in Dublin so I can go and view the Synchronika. Even Bella Barista can only give a 1 year parts warranty with a new machine since I'm not located in the UK.

 

I can get the Synchronika for €2100 delivered from Italy as I can use my VAT number which will deduct 22% from the total.

 

The Bianca I can get from Germany for €1700 delivered.

 

My choices are limited with warranty and repair issued as I'm located in Ireland. I haven't checked with our ECM dealer in Dublin if they can service etc but I don't think they can.

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Also our tap water here in Dublin, Ireland is considered as soft so plumbing in would be very useful.

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Service it your self, keep it clean do the usual it will be fine, and the Vesuvius in the for sale is £1850. So really I wouldn't even get a HX, unless its's like the Notra


SAGE IS NOT A UPGRADE

 

 

:)

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Vesuvius never crossed my mind as I thought it was way out of budget. I will have a look in the sale section now.

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I think I'll cross the HX machine out altogether. I don't want to be doing cooling flushes all the time.

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Plumbing in is a must? There are other things to consider other than scaling potential of water. A reverse osmosis machine is becoming popular on this forum. I distill and remineralise with potassium bicarbonate, most people just use a suitable bottled water like volvic or ashbeck or some kind of mix.


ACS Minima (Beta) -- Reskinned Ceado E8, Niche Zero --- Gene Cafe CBR101 with Dimmer Mod and Bean Mass Probe

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Plumbing in is not a must but thought it would save alot of hassle etc.

 

From an article I read on the Dublin Brewers championship in 2016, it talks about water quality and what was needed for the SCAA. I'll list it below so I gathered I could plumb in direct.

 

"There was a new specification for the water for the competition this year. TDS we were aiming for was 85, the main source of water here in Dublin is 91, or 92, so we only needed to make small adjustments. The water still needed to go through a carbon filter, and the PH was also a little bit high.” It is not always like this, Gary remembered WBrC in Rimini, two years before: “Water was probably 600 TDS, so there was a lot more work to be done to get it down to the required standard, and to keep it there, as well. Here in Dublin the balance of Calcium and Magnesium was almost what was required for the competition, so we did not have a tremendous amount of work to do.”

 

I have a carbon filter which I use to filter water for my aquarium so I was going to run off that too direct into the espresso machine.

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Plumbing in is not a must but thought it would save alot of hassle etc.

 

From an article I read on the Dublin Brewers championship in 2016, it talks about water quality and what was needed for the SCAA. I'll list it below so I gathered I could plumb in direct.

 

"There was a new specification for the water for the competition this year. TDS we were aiming for was 85, the main source of water here in Dublin is 91, or 92, so we only needed to make small adjustments. The water still needed to go through a carbon filter, and the PH was also a little bit high.” It is not always like this, Gary remembered WBrC in Rimini, two years before: “Water was probably 600 TDS, so there was a lot more work to be done to get it down to the required standard, and to keep it there, as well. Here in Dublin the balance of Calcium and Magnesium was almost what was required for the competition, so we did not have a tremendous amount of work to do.”

 

I have a carbon filter which I use to filter water for my aquarium so I was going to run off that too direct into the espresso machine.

All good with plumbing in.

We have super hard water and a BWT AQA smart filter for our entire house. Works a treat!

 

HX cooling flushes off a plumbed-in machine don't hurt that much compared to waste bottled water you needed to buy and carry home.

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Plumbing in is a way better option than generating loads of plastic waste


home - Sage dual boiler & Compak E8

work - Sage bambino plus & smart grinder

 

@SkateReclaimCreate

 

 

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I guess this topic could be talked about alot and from different sides etc.

 

I just wanted to be able to plumb in, set the temp and make coffee. Space is not a problem so size doesn't matter!

 

I was going with the Synchronika because I can get it for a good price considering the rrp. Also the internal layout looks quite good if I want to service myself etc.

 

Profiling is not something I would look into straight away but down the road who knows. I just want to buy smart and not want to upgrade down the line. Would be very hard for me to move on a prosumer espresso machine here in Ireland.

 

The Bianca did tick lots of boxes, just preferred the look of the ECM and if I'm splitting cost of the machine for a number of years it's not a huge difference. Also as mentioned previously the flow profiling should be coming to ECM so I could add that option in down the line.

 

Any other recommendations on machines?

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Never thought about the plastic waste! Very good point on the plumbing in issue, if I can then I definitely should.

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From all the options listed in the thread I'd go for the Vesuvius.

 

That way as you say you'll be future proofed. Also with the factory priced on forum I doubt you'll lose much if you ever decide to sell.


LR, ZM

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Earlier £1850 was mentioned but all I could find was the Vesuvius for £2150.

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I think I'll cross the HX machine out altogether. I don't want to be doing cooling flushes all the time.

 

My Nota does not require cooling flushes. I had a Vesuvius and whilst on paper it cannot be beaten, I think a lot of people quickly get to a stage where they stop playing and just use the same few profiles

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My Nota does not require cooling flushes. I had a Vesuvius and whilst on paper it cannot be beaten, I think a lot of people quickly get to a stage where they stop playing and just use the same few profiles
I dare say that probably happens with most flow profiling machines once people find a profile or 3 that they prefer. The few profiles you settle on may very well be different to someone elses though which is where it comes into it's own.
Earlier £1850 was mentioned but all I could find was the Vesuvius for £2150.
The V for £1850 is here. It's 2nd hand & collection only though.

Laissez les bons temps rouler

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The £1850 Vesuvius is second hand (barely used) and matt black. I'm not entirely sure but I believe it was listed as collection only but the seller may be open to shipping. Straight from ACS it's £2150 (Paolo posted about VAT and Tax in the thread FYI).

 

Your water might be ok. Plumbing in is the best thing if you can do it without compromising quality of espresso or your machine. Just had a quick check of dublin tap water and it's got tiny amounts of iron and aluminium as well as very small amounts of chlorine. I'm no expert and can't advise at all regarding the boiler safety of the water or whether the 0.2-0.3mg/l Chlorine will make a difference to the taste of the coffee - maybe the carbon filter will remove it? PH as you mentioned is high...I can tell you the Vesuvius has surgical steel boilers so are more resistant to corrosion than brass/copper.


ACS Minima (Beta) -- Reskinned Ceado E8, Niche Zero --- Gene Cafe CBR101 with Dimmer Mod and Bean Mass Probe

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Just wondering about the water quality. Here is a report for Dublin water. I did start a thread on it before but only the alkalinity was mentioned that is was a bit low at 28 and I could add some bicarb to raise it.

 

Water profile:

 

Colour (Hazen)........................................... .....

Turbidity (NTU)............................................. .

pH................................................ ................... 7.5 - 8.5

Conductivity (µS/cm)....................................... 140 - 150

Chloride (mg/l)................................................

Sulphate (mg/l)................................................

Total Dissolved Solids (mg/l)........................... 95

Total Residual Chlorine (mg/l)......................... 0.05 - 0.10

Nitrate (mg N/l)...............................................

Nitrite (mg N/l)................................................

Ammonia (mg N/l)...........................................

Phosphate (mg P/l)...........................................

Aluminium (mg/l).............................................

Iron (mg/l)................................................ .......

Fluoride (mg/l)................................................ . 0.6 - 0.8

 

Total Coliforms (MPN/100ml)..........................

E.coli (MPN/100ml)........................

Enterococci (CFU/100ml)…………….. 0

Heterotrophic Plate Count 22°C (CFU/ml).......

Heterotrophic Plate Count 37°C (CFU/ml).......

 

Odour............................................. ................. None

Taste............................................. ................... None

 

Magnesium (mg/L)........................................ 1.5

Calcium (mg/L)............................................. 18 - 20

Total Alkalinity (mg CaCO3/l)......................... 28

Calcium Hardness (mg CaCO3/l)..................... 45 - 50

Total Hardness (mg CaCO3/l).......................... 55

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