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barista touch - temperature of espresso is less then lukewarm? is it faulty?


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Yes, next time I will put the portafilter in and jamb the thermometer in the spout and pull a shot perhaps I will see 60c but like the sage support said this machine if for people in a rush who don't want to burn their mouths.

 

I'd take that with a pinch of salt .

You may have got someone who has just run out of answers to is my espresso hot enough or not ...

I can't measure my temp as I don't have a thermometer that goes that high.

I gonna bow out of this thread as I don't think I can be of any more help. Perhaps someone will give you the guidance , advice , confirmation you are looking for .

 

Ultimately your not happy with the machine , faulty or not , try and return it .

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I found the coffee rather cold when I started using a straight BE. The main reasons are two fold. More or less boiling water into a french press and mugs in my case taking a lot of heat out of the drink - cured by switching to light borosilicate mugs.

 

My biggest beef with the BE was lack of portafilter heating. Not much of a beef in some ways as I didn't want to use a machine that could take up to 1/2hr to get it hot. The DB is pretty quick but still takes 15min or so. It's generally reckoned that they should be in the region of 80C resulting in something significant lower when the shot hits the mug. A thin stream of water will loose heat pretty rapidly. I've seen figure of 70C where it hits the cup from a fully heated up conventional machine. A glass thermometer would mess measuring that up. Really it needs a rapid reacting tip thermocouple with low thermal mass. They can be found but aren't common, not for liquids anyway.

 

On the BE I noticed that the portafilter only got hot if 3 shots were run on the trot. Also each had a taste change. After one shot the top rim gets warm and the bottom remains cool thanks to the teflon insert. I believe all of the Sage manuals mention flushing the machine briefly and also warming the portafilter. I think the BE's now mention using the hot water outlet. Wastes a lot of water and is messy so I simply fitted a single pressurised basket and ran a shot through it. That should get your portafilter too hot to touch other than briefly. It's important to use a pressurised basket as it will keep flow rates in a sensible range for the PID to function correctly or at least nearly so. It's also very quick and easy to do. More importantly it will get it up into the region it aught to be in. It also gets the internals hot too - people are inclined to forget that.

 

The other thing to check and it will have less complications is the temperature of the hot water outlet. It would be interesting to know what that is. There is a complication. Higher heats drive flavour and aroma away so it doesn't want to be too hot. Maybe circa 70C.

 

:( Given working climates these days engineers may put crap out and start looking for a new job or be told to forget problems so duff ideas are a possibility. Only thing on that is that recently the straight BE has had similar reports and they do not have this problem if used sensibly. Unfortunately temperatures on espresso machines are not an easy thing to measure and the way people may be inclined to do that can be very misleading and too hot is not a good idea at all, That is even noticeable on instant. Try adding milk first, or use cooler water or achieve reasonable levels by putting the lot in a microwave starting with cold water and cold milk.

 

John

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John

 

68c from the hot water outlet, I tried a pressurized single shot of water then ran some water through on a regular basket and got a more consistent 65-66c. So an improvement at least

 

I have been taking measurements in a double wall glass cup as it seems to hold the temperatures the best.

 

Thanks for the tips

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68C doesn't sound unreasonable to me. With coffee in a regular basket you will probably get higher reading at some point but the grinds themselves will take some heat away.

 

If you do preheat with a pressurised basket one of these is handy

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Portafilter-Basket-Removal-EDESIA-ESPRESS/dp/B073JP7KLD/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1552951287&sr=8-1&keywords=filter+basket+removal+tool

 

Also with a little care good for getting the rubber seal out of the grouphead for when you clean that area up. Actually preheating with a pressurised basket also gives the machine a regular clean water back flush. What ever is done though the area behind the shower screen will collect grinds that need cleaning out from time to time.

 

I did try a double walled glass mug. First type broke when I poured boiling water into it straight from a kettle. 2nd type broke internally when cleaning. The mugs I use are by unihom but they are rather large which may not suite, The hold 300 odd ml, much the same as a typical mug. Price was good on ebay and then I posted good feedback mentioning that they passed the boiling water out of a kettle test - seemed to put the price up. ;) They need a bit of care cleaning in case the handle gets pulled off. Not a good idea to hold that when cleaning. They are a little too tall for Sage machines so need tilting a bit to get them under the portafilter spouts. They may produce other sizes. They really do seem to be made of borosilicate which from my experiences is unusual. I like to drink tea out of glass especially with lemon. ;) Posey yes I know. Lots I have tried broke filled directly from a kettle.

 

These days I drink my coffee slowly. Taste changes as it cools can be interesting.

 

John

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John

 

68c from the hot water outlet, I tried a pressurized single shot of water then ran some water through on a regular basket and got a more consistent 65-66c. So an improvement at least

 

I have been taking measurements in a double wall glass cup as it seems to hold the temperatures the best.

 

Thanks for the tips

 

Most likely you will find that the temperature fill vary, a lot. Try running just water through the portafilter every time (as this also heats the filter) you will use the machine. I may suffer from blacksmiths hands, but when the BT delivers as it should, you will not keep your hand in under there... On mine BT I had variations in one shot from very hot (not able to hold my hand for more than half a second till keeping my hand under and it was “slightly uncomfortable”.

Sometimes the heat held through the whole shot, other times the heat lacked from start to finish. The BT with its thermojet is supposed to deliver consistent temperature, mine was absolutely not.

 

Therefore, I spoke to Sage’s rep. here, which happened to have the same machine (BT) at home, in which he was very pleased with (delivering performance near Sage’s dual boiler and Oracle; he should know...) After some fault searching he determined my BT to have either a faulty thermojet or maybe sensor (PID?) and advised me to return it for repair (exchange thermojet/sensor) As it happens, I bought a Dual Boiler instead, for an incredibly good price, also my girlfriend bought a Barista Express, both these are performing equally well.

 

I really like the BT with its amazing milk frothing, delivering fantastic espresso (when working properly), fast menu, when set up with the parameters you prefér.

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  • 1 month later...

I recently bought the Sage Barrista Touch (european name for the breville) and as i saw you guys are having issues with the temp, I checked mine just to be sure in case I should return it within the two week period which makes the return hassle free.

 

The most accurate measurement of the temp i could do was the temperature at the portafilter nozzle with no coffe in the filter. Measuring anything else (like temp in mug etc) had too many other variables in play so the figures were all over the place. Also measuring with the single wall filter gives wildly inaccurate numbers as the flow of water there without coffe in it is significantly higher than it would be with coffe in as there is very little resistance. Using the double wall filter insert actually simulates (at least to some extent) the resistance that a coffe in the filter would make, even without the coffe in it. Makes sense, as the dry preground coffe is lacking in resistance and thats the reason why the pressure needs to be artificialy created in the portafilter to brew it properly.

 

Measuring the flow of water out of the pressurized double wall portafilter nozzle (actually sticking the thermometer in the nozzle) reliably gives me 200F ... over and over again. You just have to wait a couple seconds for the thermometer to catch up with the water temp as its metal sensor (in my case) has its own mass that takes a while to match the temp of the water. Its actually a normal kitchen meat thermometer for some $15 so nothing fancy ... but from the few tests i did it seems to be pretty accurate.

 

Maybe you could try re-do your test and see if you can consistenty get 200F directly measured out of the portafilter nozzle too? Just be sure to use the double wall insert to simulate the pressure. I used the double shot one (not sure if using the single shot would make ani diff).

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  • 1 year later...

Why are you asking this person about milk addition? He clearly has a defect in the design of the heating element or controller. I too have the same issue. My temp measures 72. Measure any way you like at the brew head it is well below the starting spec of around 90. Breville support gave me the same run around, even asked me what beans I use, grind setting etc. Please. One can guess why they wont print a spec for water temp at the brew head = because they can't. Shame on you Breville. Fix this or fade away.

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I had the same problem with my touch, taking the temp from the cup, having invested in a decent thermapen and taken the temp from the portafilter it is actually delivering the shot at 87c and 89c on the second shot. Measuring the same shot in the cup and the reading is 71c and 74c. 

These machines do need you to get the extraction right to deliver the correct temperature, as they use a thermojet system and not a boiler. If the shot doesn't do a pre infusion of at least 7 seconds the thermojet doesn't get up to temp and will produce a colder shot.

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2 hours ago, Dalerst said:

I had the same problem with my touch, taking the temp from the cup, having invested in a decent thermapen and taken the temp from the portafilter it is actually delivering the shot at 87c and 89c on the second shot. Measuring the same shot in the cup and the reading is 71c and 74c. 

These machines do need you to get the extraction right to deliver the correct temperature, as they use a thermojet system and not a boiler. If the shot doesn't do a pre infusion of at least 7 seconds the thermojet doesn't get up to temp and will produce a colder shot.

I wouldn’t bother, the guy is clearly angry and just wants to lay into Breville apparently! Why he has come on a UK forum to do it is anyone’s guess! 
He’s measuring it wrong and his machine is likely fine 

Edited by TomHughes
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  • 1 month later...

Same issue here with luke warm espresso. Such a shame, I like the machine otherwise. But if you can comfortably dip your finger in the coffee and your husband complains of cold coffee, something is wrong. 

That’s after adjusting the temperature to max and preheating the mug etc. 

Will try to return the machine now. 

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17 hours ago, Tobiremote said:

Same issue here with luke warm espresso. Such a shame, I like the machine otherwise. But if you can comfortably dip your finger in the coffee and your husband complains of cold coffee, something is wrong. 

That’s after adjusting the temperature to max and preheating the mug etc. 

Will try to return the machine now. 

What's your shot time?

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  • 3 weeks later...

I have had a BT for a while now, and also originally found the temperature was cooler than I liked, but the following helped to bring the temperature up (some of these seem obvious):

 

- Preheat the cup using the empty portafilter - filling the espresso cup with the machine warms the cup, the portafilter, and the group head, whilst also driving hot water through the pipes, ready for your coffee

 

- I started using stoneware espresso cups which retain heat really well, particularly when preheated (if you like the coffee to retain heat even better, preheat the cup with freshly boiled water from kettle too - but I think this is overkill)

 

- I bought a 54mm bottomless portafilter. This made a significant difference - I suspect a lot of the heat got lost hitting the inner plastic of the portafilter, then running through the spout. No issue with this in the bottomless - straight from the portafilter to the prewarmed cup.

 

Couple of extra notes:

- the BT inner burr setting out if the box is awful - I needed to set it down from the default of 6 to 3. This allowed for proper extraction. Leaving it at 6 with side dial to 1, just didn’t grind beans fine enough and so not sufficient contact time with the water or heat retention. 

- Once inner burr was properly set, I  checked the temperature of the puck in the portafilter after pouring - this had a temperature of 92 Celsius - perfect temperature for the coffee extraction.

- The instruction manual recommends 15-18g of coffee in the double portafilter basket, but I found these are better with 20g of coffee (strangely, the barista pro which uses the same basket recommends 19-22g)

Hope this helps. 

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  • 4 months later...
Anyone know if the problem is as bad for the Breville barista pro? 

Same tech as the bambino so yes - hot enough brew temp will always be something of a challenge. Doable with the right warm up routine and crucially - the right flow rate at brew time

Having had one for a while after a series of e61 machines I’d say if you regularly drink medium or lights roasts it may be more trouble than it’s worth
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The silly aspect about this area is people measuring brew temperature as they do. It can not be done with anything other than then correct equipment which will also test at brewing water flow rates. There is no point testing at any other flow rate. Even taping into the flow to the group head before it gets to the coffee can give misleading results.

One area that can be checked is temperature when the shot hits the cup. Generally the makers will have aimed at the 70C range but obviously if the cup is significantly colder it will cool it as may the portafilter but Sage add some insulation to avoid a lot of that  🤣 which some take out.

I posted a method of heating earlier it flushes the machine as well. If used the machine should not be flushed again as that will cool the thermo what ever it is so the temperature that comes out then is irrelevant. Another way is flush as that should always be done and then run a bit of steam. In  both cases brew temperature will be as it should be. Run water through without a puck or pressurised basket fitted it wont be so there was no point in doing it.

This behaviour is a feature of PID really. It and the heating power that is available can only achieve so much and maintain a stable temperature.

Now if some one said their americano or even milk based drink wasn't hot enough I'd say look at the heat taken up by whatever you drink out of. Part of this is down to drinking coffee via a kettle using near boiling water. We switched to a hot water dispenser and believe it or not being able to select a coffee temperature makes an enormous difference to even the taste of instant. Milk based - well frothing milk involves taking it to a certain temperature. I usually go higher than ideal which tends to make it stiffer.

I would say that maybe the hot water coming out of my BE could usefully have been a bit hotter but too hot will drive flavours and aroma away. Either use mugs etc take out less heat or preheat them some how. There is a reason many espresso machines have cup warming facilities. Some will get them too hot as well.

Lighter and medium didn't really cause me any problems on a BE. Tuning is crucial and what works well on some machines may need significant changes on this range of machines.

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