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Oracle3000

Sage Oracle - single filter basket - results ?

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Hi folks, I'm new to the forum. The first coffee forum I have ever registered. Really love good coffee. (Fav: 1. flat white 2. latte)

 

I bought my Oracle in April 2016. Still excited about it. I use it every day. (still, I would still consider myself the worst Barista ever, but that's for another day...)

 

Question: I had to buy a single filter basket from Sage for my Oracle. Back when I bought the Oracle, the single filter basket didn't exist.

 

So, I bought one and I couldn't be any more disappointed with it. Same settings, but results are so much worse. I get more than double the amount of espresso within the same extraction time.

 

For example:

 

double filter basket: 30 seconds - 60 ml of espresso

single filter basket: 30 seconds - again 60 ml of espresso (sometimes even more!)

 

Hope you Baristas can give me some advice.

 

I know of course I could try different brand of coffee, etc. .... I tried - same weird result.

 

Thanks a lot.

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You actually need to grind much finer with the single basket, well that's my experience anyway. I am sure some of the more experienced members would be able to advice you better.

I have given up using the single baskets as they are very difficult to master, if I want a single I just use the double basket and waste the other espresso.

 

And welcome to the forum, you will get some great information on here :)

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Thank you Iris, that's exactly what my experience looks like. I also waste double the amount of espresso for a single. And apparently I wasted money on the single basket.

 

Still, I'd like to think there is a way to even results out. Maybe someone else knows how?

 

Thank you guys

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Maybe use the single basket if anyone wants a longer/weaker/less caffeinated drink? It presents less resistance to the machine than the double, so at the same grind you brew at a longer ratio, or as @Iris says, you could grind finer when using the single for a normal strength drink.


“Coffee evokes the most insane reactions in people”, Rene Redzepi.

 

https://markwjburness.wordpress.com/

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@Oracle3000 Iris is right you have to grind finer for the single basket .. I think Sage had a problem with the single basket and the auto tamper spinning the puck , which is why it has a sanded effect internally .. On one forum I read Sage were suggesting wetting the inside of the basket before filling it .. Also if the tamping mechanism is slightly out of adjustment ie set too low, it may have problems with the tamp due to the shape of the basket .. You definitely have to dial in the grinder to suit the single basket with the same bean differently to the double . Best of luck

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Thank you, grinding finer is absolutely not an option. That's how you ruin the taste of the coffee.

 

A single basket should do what the name says. Producing a single espresso shot.

 

Quite frankly, I feel betrayed by Sage.

 

Thanks for confirming my worst fear. I will give up on it and keep have to waste a LOT of beans.

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@Nicknak Thank you for your suggestions. I will try to wet the basket and try again. Maybe it will have an effect. Adjusting the grinder is so problematic. The oracle will always need a few shots before adjusting to the new grind settings, right? Doesn't seem very efficient.

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Thank you, grinding finer is absolutely not an option. That's how you ruin the taste of the coffee.

 

What do you mean by this, please?

 

A single basket should do what the name says. Producing a single espresso shot.

 

Quite frankly, I feel betrayed by Sage.

 

Thanks for confirming my worst fear. I will give up on it and keep have to waste a LOT of beans.

 

Some good advice has been given. Why will you waste a lot of beans?


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If it's the same single basket as used on the DB I think it has another problem. I believe it is the same basket but may be coated. Unless you overfill ie probably not enough room for the grinds to expand an ideal amount, you will very probably be tamping against the shoulder in the basket rather than the grounds. This has cropped up a some time ago on the Oracle as well.

 

Overfilling is ok within limits. I used the single a lot on my BE struggling for strength on many beans. Limiting grinds expansion was ok up to a point but past it the drink went weaker. The ideal left a puck top with very very slight signs of the hole in the screw that holds the shower screen on so in practice was probably allowing the grinds to expand fully. Might be a solution on their 58mm baskets but I have just stopped using it. I use a Fracino 7g single instead - circa 10g on Sage but only for "weaker" drinks which can suite some beans such as Mandheling. My usual bean MM was ok on the BE in the single but brewed at 15 bar which the DB can't do.

 

John

-


In Use Sage DB+IMS Shower Screen, Niche. Profitec T64. Others Sage BE, Mazer Mini A, Ceado 37J. Projects Little Gem, Gaggia M7D

:pToo many filter baskets - maybe. For sale when I get round to it. Robur Elect, Ceado 37J, Ascaso i_1,Piccino

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A single basket should do what the name says. Producing a single espresso shot.

 

Quite frankly, I feel betrayed by Sage..

 

The single basket does exactly what it is supposed to do. Make coffee with a smaller dose. It's not magic & can't change the grind size of the dose you put in it, nor take control of your shot parameters if you don't care to.


“Coffee evokes the most insane reactions in people”, Rene Redzepi.

 

https://markwjburness.wordpress.com/

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@Oracle3000 .. I am not an expert by any means but from what I have read on here and limited use of different baskets from singles to doubles from different manufacturers you have to dial in each one on the grinder to get similar results in the extraction etc ... I used the Oracle for about 3/4 months and once you get to know the beans you used I knew the ball park to start with .. I might be wrong but a single basket from any manufacturer does need to be dialled in differently unless you want the drink to be like that your experiencing with your single at this time

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Thanks everyone, really useful this forum. I think it's just hard to get a good result anyway. And using a single basket makes an already complex process unnecessarily more complex.

 

Nobody can argue against that I'm afraid. I am so disappointed. But I will use my energy to get get the best out of the double basket, the single basket is utter rubbish. Thanks for confirming.

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The single basket does exactly what it is supposed to do. Make coffee with a smaller dose. It's not magic & can't change the grind size of the dose you put in it, nor take control of your shot parameters if you don't care to.

 

Fair point - perhaps I should mention that I only make 315ml total water based drinks. Shot ratio's what ever the basket size are always in the same range.

 

John

-


In Use Sage DB+IMS Shower Screen, Niche. Profitec T64. Others Sage BE, Mazer Mini A, Ceado 37J. Projects Little Gem, Gaggia M7D

:pToo many filter baskets - maybe. For sale when I get round to it. Robur Elect, Ceado 37J, Ascaso i_1,Piccino

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Fair point - perhaps I should mention that I only make 315ml total water based drinks. Shot ratio's what ever the basket size are always in the same range.

 

John

-

 

In your case shot ratios are not particularly relevant, your final drink is always 315g/dose weight. All that changes is efficiency of extraction.


“Coffee evokes the most insane reactions in people”, Rene Redzepi.

 

https://markwjburness.wordpress.com/

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In your case shot ratios are not particularly relevant, your final drink is always 315g/dose weight. All that changes is efficiency of extraction.

 

Of course they are as they have a distinct effect on taste.

 

John

-


In Use Sage DB+IMS Shower Screen, Niche. Profitec T64. Others Sage BE, Mazer Mini A, Ceado 37J. Projects Little Gem, Gaggia M7D

:pToo many filter baskets - maybe. For sale when I get round to it. Robur Elect, Ceado 37J, Ascaso i_1,Piccino

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I have the Oracle and have had some success with the signal basket. It does need to be dialled in with a much finer grind than the double. For example the bean I’m using currently is grind 20 for a double and 16 for a single. You also need to check the auto dosing is set to give between 12 and 14 grams. I found the best way to use the single basket was with a long 7-10 second pre infusion and aiming to get 24-28 grams out in 35-40 seconds. HTH.

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I think the Oracle is quite good at what it does but if you’d like to up your game and switch between dose amounts / beans etc. you need a separate grinder. I’m hoping I get the niche zero in January and start using it like the DB. I can see the built in grinder being fully redundant which is a shame but I’m now in to espresso way more than I was when first buying the machine.

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You can check the dose by weighing the portafilter empty and then the full weight and do the maths. It is possible to adjust the dose by a few grams by adjusting a bolt above the tamper fan that is secured by a small allen key. If you find the dose is out of range I would be happy to explain in more detail how to do this if you are struggling

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Of course they are as they have a distinct effect on taste.

 

John

-

 

You can make the drinks you make at almost any ratio by changing your grind.

 

By using "what ever" basket, you're not keeping anything constant - different basket & grind = variable result.

 

So, as I said, all your drinks are 315/x. The taste changes because of the difference in extraction efficiency (& different bean/roast). Different basket size makes final drink more/less concentrated, within that range of extraction (which is wide).


“Coffee evokes the most insane reactions in people”, Rene Redzepi.

 

https://markwjburness.wordpress.com/

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You can make the drinks you make at almost any ratio by changing your grind.

 

By using "what ever" basket, you're not keeping anything constant - different basket & grind = variable result.

 

So, as I said, all your drinks are 315/x. The taste changes because of the difference in extraction efficiency (& different bean/roast). Different basket size makes final drink more/less concentrated, within that range of extraction (which is wide).

 

.

 

John

-


In Use Sage DB+IMS Shower Screen, Niche. Profitec T64. Others Sage BE, Mazer Mini A, Ceado 37J. Projects Little Gem, Gaggia M7D

:pToo many filter baskets - maybe. For sale when I get round to it. Robur Elect, Ceado 37J, Ascaso i_1,Piccino

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@Mic_b I have now checked the amounts.

 

Double: 21 grams exactly.

Single: varies between 11 and 12 grams.

 

Should I change something?

 

Btw: Today something very common happened. I used the machine 3 times. 2 Singles and a double in between. Adjusted the grinder each time. But the last one was terrible. 70-80 ml in 30 seconds DESPITE adjusting the grinder for a single. :(

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Those dose amounts are good for the Oracle. I do find it hard to get consistently good results though and that’s why I’m investing in a good quality grinder that I can single dose as I only make 1-2 drinks a day. I think the oracle is designed for having a full hopper of fresh beans and using the double basket. This when dialled in it does make good espresso however I just can’t use it like this as I’m not getting through enough coffee. The beans in the hopper go stale quickly as the machine heats them up with it being integrated. The most consistent results for me are to single dose with it. My workflow is something like this. Run grinder until totally out of beans and leave it running for an extra minute or so > add 25g, dose and then extract. I use scales and alsways aim for an extraction 1:2 (44g) in 28-38 seconds and adjust the grind to taste. This does work for me and I do get nice espresso now using either basket but they have to be dialled in differently. It is worth noting for some reason for me I need a long pre infusion for the single basket 7 seconds ish and either none or a very short pre infusion for the double or it tastes bad. I have no reason why this is and it’s taken me ages to figure this out. This also may be just me, my machine, grinder, taste etc and not work for you.

 

If if you stick with it I’m sure you’ll get there. Looking at peoples post on here there are a lot of sage dB users with a great deal of knowledge and top quality grinders that must be making really really good coffee and it’s basically the same machine

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thank you @Mic_b for your suggestions! I also keep the hopper empty. Always fill in about 30/60 grams just before grinding. I will also try out your suggestion with the pre infusion. That's what I experimented the least up to now. Always aimed to be in the 7-12 second range. I guess I will have to think about whether or not it's worth investing in a grinder. But before that I will work on getting the most out of the double filter basket. I may need your advice on that as well very soon :) thank you!

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