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Following ratios makes tiny drinks?

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This will be a good test of my understanding.

 

So the ratio of coffee to extracted espresso is a starting point - and what you remember to make the same drink next time. Typically 2g of drink for every 1g of coffee as a starting point (36g drink from 18g coffee for a double shot)

 

The extraction % is how much actual coffee is in that extracted drink, some beans/grinds will be more soluable than others, so all other things being even a 36g extraction of bean 1 will not have the same amount of coffee as 36g of bean 2

 

So you need to try an extraction, then you can vary the grind, the tamping pressure and the volumes (in and out) to change the extracted drink. Vary one at a time if you can so you know what effect it had. Once you find a drink you like, you can record the numbers (grind, coffee in, coffee out) so you can repeat it.

I think the last sentence is what matters - use the numbers not as the rules but as a way to remember how you made the really good drink.

 

Since my grinder is not easily adjusted, and my machine has no fancy options, I vary the amount of coffee in/out and accept that some beans just don't work as well as others. But I also drink lattes so I get away with more....


Sage DTP | Santos #4

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The ratio sets the strength not the flavour balance. 1g of coffee to 2g of drink makes a shot that is 9-10% coffee, 90% water, if it is extracted well. If a lot of your shots at 1:2 are sour, depite grind changes, try 1:2.5 or 1:3.

 

If your shots are realistic & your roasts are reasonably similar (e.g. not swinging from light filter roasted El Salvador to dried out, very dark supermarket beans) the solubility of beans isn't a big issue. You might still want to pull brighter coffees a bit longer in ratio to tame acidity. If you, your prep & your roasts are consistent, the solubility won't vary by any more than it will for any other brew method.

 

You need to try a ratio, if you are measuring extraction then great, but you need to build a bigger picture of a realistic range of extractions at that ratio. But essentially, yes, logging dose, brew ratio & how much you liked the drink will help you with repeatability (grind setting may still vary some).

 

Rules are preset by the universe & the intrinsic properties of matter, we can't make them, we can't bend them. We set parameters & grind setting, then by the time you press brew button, aiming for a given ratio, what is destined to happen based on those parameters happens. It's odd that suggestions given to help people make tasty coffee are sometimes described as "rules". If there is such a thing as coffee making rule it is make drinks you like & can repeat & screw everyone else :-)

 

I'd be more constant with dose & mainly vary the weight out, but, sure, that's one way to do it.


“Coffee evokes the most insane reactions in people”, Rene Redzepi.

 

https://markwjburness.wordpress.com/

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It's not really a good idea to use tamping as a variable. Much better to keep in constant. I found the easiest way to do that was to strain a little. In theory lighter tamping means that the grind can be finer but if a light tamp is set at what seems to be a sensible level, 10kg there isn't really going to be much in it. I recollect some one who switched from a DTP to another more conventional machine mentioning that it seemed to prefer lighter tamping than they used on the DTP. That was down to the machine change and any time anything major is changed ratios etc are also likely to need changing.

 

Some one mentioned X% extraction. Yet another way of brewing coffee. A refactometer is used and ratio and maybe time is used to achieve some specific physical extraction level. From comments usually ratio. Ok but this will result in a certain taste and that's it no scope for varying it without possibly changing the extraction level. Coffee seems to have it's own scale for refractive index just like some other things such as sugar solutions which use brix. Pity really as refractive index is refractive index how ever it's measured so conversion between "units" is possible but information is scarce as far as coffee is concerned = a rather expensive piece of equipment to measure it. They could have used brix or direct refractive indexes.

 

John

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In Use Sage DB+IMS Shower Screen, Niche. Profitec T64. Others Sage BE, Mazer Mini A, Ceado 37J. Projects Little Gem, Gaggia M7D

:pToo many filter baskets - maybe. For sale when I get round to it. Robur Elect, Ceado 37J, Ascaso i_1,Piccino

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Some one mentioned X% extraction. Yet another way of brewing coffee. A refactometer is used and ratio and maybe time is used to achieve some specific physical extraction level. From comments usually ratio. Ok but this will result in a certain taste and that's it no scope for varying it without possibly changing the extraction level. Coffee seems to have it's own scale for refractive index just like some other things such as sugar solutions which use brix. Pity really as refractive index is refractive index how ever it's measured so conversion between "units" is possible but information is scarce as far as coffee is concerned = a rather expensive piece of equipment to measure it. They could have used brix or direct refractive indexes.

 

John

-

 

Jibber jabber.

 

I mentioned it, my name is Mark, not "someone".

 

It's not a different way of brewing, the reading is taken after brewing, the brewing is over & done before you get it. You do need to know dose weight & beverage weight to get a meaningful result.

 

The useful unit for coffee concentration is %TDS. This allows you to back calculate extraction yield, refractive index does not. Sure, %TDS is correlated to refractive index by comparisons to dehydration (the de facto standard for coffee extraction yield measurement for over 60years now). Refractometers don't just read in refractive index, there are scales for many liquids, including different ones for cat wee & dog wee.

 

Extraction yield is a guide to brew efficiency, not taste. Brew efficiency has a correlation to flavour balance (sour under-extraction, drying over-extraction), but it is objective, not subjective. The same coffee at different extractions will taste different, there is obviously scope for varying taste (like changing your beans or water), you could even have a different taste at the same extraction due to a fault/parameter beyond what the refractometer measures. 5 different coffees will all taste different at the same extraction, they might even taste best, or only be able to achieve different extractions to each other.

 

Look at a coffee refractometer as a scale that weighs the coffee dissolved in your cup. It tells you what it tells you. It can't tell you what your coffee tastes like, in the same way weighing your dose, or your drink doesn't tell you what it tastes like.


“Coffee evokes the most insane reactions in people”, Rene Redzepi.

 

https://markwjburness.wordpress.com/

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[quote=enrm6;671607

The bit that hurts my brain is the extraction percentage. It feels like you are saying that variable isn’t related to ratio, and I’m struggling with that.

 

John

-


In Use Sage DB+IMS Shower Screen, Niche. Profitec T64. Others Sage BE, Mazer Mini A, Ceado 37J. Projects Little Gem, Gaggia M7D

:pToo many filter baskets - maybe. For sale when I get round to it. Robur Elect, Ceado 37J, Ascaso i_1,Piccino

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MWJB can you unpack this a bit more for me please. I get the ultimate point that ratio is dependent and personal and there’s no target value, it’ll be what it’ll be.

 

The bit that hurts my brain is the extraction percentage. It feels like you are saying that variable isn’t related to ratio, and I’m struggling with that.

 

Extraction yield (%EY) isn't directly related to ratio, assuming a nominal extraction is possible. It can be a function of the ratio for espresso, if the ratio is very short & your grinder & prep do not extract enough from the grinds at 1:1.5 or 1:2 for example. The longer the ratio, the more likely it is you will have the ability to reach a normal range of extraction (not just under-extracted shots).

 

Grind size along with brew method facilitates extraction. E.g. for the filter coffee, pouring 290g of water over 18g of grounds at an average of 0.8mm size could hit that 18.5% 3.33g of coffee in the cup. But the grind size might need to be half that average size (0.4mm) to make an espresso shot of 54g with 18g of the same beans (0.8mm average grinds in an espresso machine won't make what most folk think of as espresso).

 

You select the ratio to make drinks of a strength you enjoy. If every drink you make is a different ratio with the same beans, you're going to get a wide range of extractions, some will be on the sour side.


“Coffee evokes the most insane reactions in people”, Rene Redzepi.

 

https://markwjburness.wordpress.com/

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Extraction yield (%EY) isn't directly related to ratio, assuming a nominal extraction is possible. It can be a function of the ratio for espresso, if the ratio is very short & your grinder & prep do not extract enough from the grinds at 1:1.5 or 1:2 for example. The longer the ratio, the more likely it is you will have the ability to reach a normal range of extraction (not just under-extracted shots).

 

Grind size along with brew method facilitates extraction. E.g. for the filter coffee, pouring 290g of water over 18g of grounds at an average of 0.8mm size could hit that 18.5% 3.33g of coffee in the cup. But the grind size might need to be half that average size (0.4mm) to make an espresso shot of 54g with 18g of the same beans (0.8mm average grinds in an espresso machine won't make what most folk think of as espresso).

 

You select the ratio to make drinks of a strength you enjoy. If every drink you make is a different ratio with the same beans, you're going to get a wide range of extractions, some will be on the sour side.

 

Thanks for the further explanation but even though you start with ‘extraction is not directly related to ratio’, you effectively then go on to say it is. I perhaps made the incorrect assumption were were talking espresso not other methods. I can understand that extraction is a function of ratio for espresso, that makes sense, it’s just it seemed the point was being made that it isn’t.


Rocket R58, Bottomless portafilter, VST 18g basket, Niche Zero, Joey tamper (58.4)

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Thanks for the further explanation but even though you start with ‘extraction is not directly related to ratio’, you effectively then go on to say it is. I perhaps made the incorrect assumption were were talking espresso not other methods. I can understand that extraction is a function of ratio for espresso, that makes sense, it’s just it seemed the point was being made that it isn’t.

 

Extraction is only an issue with brew ratio if you are trying to make very short strong drinks, which are borderline possible with your grinder & prep. In other words you hit physical wall that stops you being able to brew normally.

 

At the other extreme, if you want to brew at 1:25 you're going to get a lot of weak coffee & it's more likely you'll over-extract cups.

 

So, yes, at extremes, certain extraction malfunctions are reliant on brew ratio. But why make life hard for yourself? Why not brew at more feasible parameters and have the luxury of being able to tweak strength/extraction & pull it off? If you do that, you should be able to get decent extractions across a wide range of coffees & roasts.

 

I don't see the attraction in setting out to brew borderline/peculiar cups. If you can brew short and are happy with the taste, then you don't have an issue.


“Coffee evokes the most insane reactions in people”, Rene Redzepi.

 

https://markwjburness.wordpress.com/

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