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My Sage DB Just arrived

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;) Yes may seem to be an odd thing to happen but now seems to be an ideal time. One reason is that it's a refurb and was the last one out of this batch.The other is less obvious and depends on what happens with my BE. I've no concerns about the Ebay refurb seller as have dealt with them before and have seen used machines for sale at not too dissimilar prices. Only a 12month return to base warrantee rather than the usual 2 years.

 

All I've done so far is give it a look over. No signs of any marks. The only sign of use is a damp water filter so it's very probably a return. The same company also sell some as used with no warrantee other than a certain time to return it if not happy. I've wondered how they decide which is which also who does the refurb.

 

Surprises. The grouphead is all metal and a 2 wing portafilter. From conversations I expected some of the grouphead to be plastic. Not concerned providing Sage have balanced out that's heat up time with the boilers.

 

Problems of a sort. Minor at this price really. Mix up of baskets, no manual and I thought they came with a water hardness kit. If so both that and any cleaning consumables they supply are missing. They are manufacturer refurbs so wonder why this sort of thing happens. 2 single pressurised baskets, 1 double pressurised basket and a Teflon coated single basket - doesn't sound very professional manufacturer wise and suggests who ever threw them in the box had no idea what was what. If the filter had been changed I wouldn't even know it had been used. ;) Anyway I'm happy and not much to sort out really.

 

Next thing is to check for faults.

 

Maybe some one can tell me if they do came with a water hardness test kit ???

 

John

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In Use Sage DB+IMS Shower Screen, Niche. Others Sage BE, Mazer Mini A,. Projects Little Gem, Gaggia M7D

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The water test thing is a single strip which is glued to the front over of the manual. It is a bit like an alkali strip and all you do is when turning the machine on for the first time, it will ask you to put a value in between 1 and 5. Again, all this does is to suggest to your machine when to alert you to various things so no big deal

https://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?34666-Sage-DB-is-this-acceptable&highlight=sage

end of page 2 explains how to reduce the pump pressure

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Thanks for that. I wonder if any one knows what these numbers mean in the usual hardness degrees that are used. No need for a test strip then as all waterboards in the UK publish figures by people's address. They need the address as actual water sources can vary. I'd be inclined to set for harder than we get anyway as ours is very soft.

 

Some may know of a man who said "Now I am become death, the destroyer of worlds" after producing the bomb. I have thought about adding a forum signature that states "Now I am become death, the destroyer of beans, I brew at 15 bar". Trouble is I like the drink and have been wondering how I will get on with lower. I suspect the same effect can be achieved by playing with the numbers in that link, A new learning curve but the Piccino was ok. It just needed a bit more coffee.

 

Heat up time - hopefully just need to press the button before feeding the dog. ;) If she'll let me do something else before dishing out her food.

 

John

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In Use Sage DB+IMS Shower Screen, Niche. Others Sage BE, Mazer Mini A,. Projects Little Gem, Gaggia M7D

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Amazon sell packets of hardness test strips. Assuming all are the same they go 0, 50, 125, 250, 500 ppm. Our water is 2.72 Clark. A web converter puts that at 15.5ppm. Another puts it as 39 ppm. So will set 1 and also get a test strip out of curiosity. I'd guess that the difference is due to permanent hardness aspects but school was too long ago to remember clearly.

 

On the other hand maybe 2 and see how often it comes up.

 

I assume the numbers do go up with hardness?

 

John

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In Use Sage DB+IMS Shower Screen, Niche. Others Sage BE, Mazer Mini A,. Projects Little Gem, Gaggia M7D

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Not good. It did steam and then I reset to factory defaults as the brew temperature was way down. No steam just 3 beeps. Checking things - cold water out of the steam drain valve, pump runs to fill the boiler up again. Hot water out of the brew drain valve and pump runs to fill it up again. So looks like the steam boiler isn't heating up at all.

 

There seems to be a number of different comments around about this happening on these dual boilers. Anyone have any clues or experience of the same problem.

 

John

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In Use Sage DB+IMS Shower Screen, Niche. Others Sage BE, Mazer Mini A,. Projects Little Gem, Gaggia M7D

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The steam boiler takes a couple more minutes to get up to temp from the brew boiler.

 

I turn mine on, once the temp indicator hits 94 (what mine is set to) all the lights indicate its ready....for brewing. if i pull the steam i get those 3 beeps until the steam boiler has hit temp, which is another 1-2 minutes. pull the steam then and no beeps and the steam light illuminates.


"Yeah, well, scientifically, traditions are an idiot thing"

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Before you muck on with it, get in touch with the seller. It ought to have arrived working (Obviously). What temp does the pid show as 93 is the default ? There is a secret menu that lets you alter everything. Here is a link to the handbook in case you do not have it

http://www.lakeland.co.uk/content/documents/19340_Sage_Dual_Boiler_Instructions.pdf

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Thanks but I downloaded the manual before turning it on and found brew temp was at 83C so used the menu that can be obtained from power up to reset to defaults. That also allowed me to set water hardness. I've left it on more than long enough for the steam boiler to heat up even long enough for it to turn itself off and the water in it is still cold.

 

I don't know what the seller does in terms of warrantee. Could be back to them for repair or a straight refund. I could go for a straight refund anyway working or not. I did some web searches for dual boiler no steam. Most relate to Breville. 'it happens. One comment is a little worrying. Breville give 3 sets of instructions for descaling. Going on a comment the middle one of those that was updated pretty quickly is down to a software update that could cause the steam boiler heater to remain on during descaling. The result can be the element burning out or a thermal fuse going pop. End result 3 peeps when steam is selected. It seems other machines have had the same problem for other reasons. It seems the other reason for the beeps can be water level checks.

 

So when I filled the tank and switched on I wondered what the hell was going on for some time. Pump going crazy - I do know what I would expect it to do filling the tanks and pumping water so a I really do mean crazy for a rather prolonged period. I'm wondering if this is what has happened. That single heat up broke it. It would explain the problem. Shipped with water in it and bounced around which could result in air locks and all sorts. The menu system also lacks what is often available on many things - reset to ex factory conditions, not the same thing as defaults.

 

;) It might just turn out to be a loan which clues me up on the machine. Heat up time is pretty quick and does get the metal work in the group head hot as well. A flush through a pressurised basket finishes that off including a hot portafilter. Thought I may as well clean the shower screen and found it uses the more usual commercial arrangement. A relatively thick plate with holes in it behind the shower screen. Plastic rather than metal. Good really because it will take up less heat. Also Fracino baskets fit the portafilter even though they are ridged. No idea what they will hold.

 

If this fault does exist out there then really Sage should update the machines when it happens FOC. Some companies would have a recall. It clearly comes under fit for use.

 

Also looked to see if there was any mention on youtube. No but some of taking them apart and past problems that need that. From those it also looks like it uses a commercial 3 way arrangement.

 

John

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In Use Sage DB+IMS Shower Screen, Niche. Others Sage BE, Mazer Mini A,. Projects Little Gem, Gaggia M7D

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I'm being told to descale the steam wand. Don't think that there are instructions for descaling just that only the entire machine which doesn't seem to include using the steam wand. Am I missing something ?

 

John

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In Use Sage DB+IMS Shower Screen, Niche. Others Sage BE, Mazer Mini A,. Projects Little Gem, Gaggia M7D

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I'm being told to descale the steam wand. Don't think that there are instructions for descaling just that only the entire machine which doesn't seem to include using the steam wand. Am I missing something ?

 

John

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I've never seen anything that would suggest the steam wand could specifically be descaled.


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Would be useful if you could photo the error messages. Was this XS systems? Is the warranty from them or Sage? Personally, I would be tempted to send the bundle of trouble back whilst you can. There are too many electrics on board for the diy dabbler to really play with!

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I sent xsitems photo's of the manual. What they told me was simply what Sage said to do given the no steam problem. So I will do what was shown in the photo's - clean wand - already done and was clear and then run the descale through. That will highlight if the steam boiler is heating at all. Maybe scale could have an effect on level sensors but I have my doubts. Passivation of some form might. ;) Maybe I should fill it with contact cleaner.

 

I could cope with the electronics, very definitely in terms of boiler sensors and items like that also board level faults within limits. ;) I aught to able to having spent well over 20 years working in that sort of area and part time for a lot longer than that. Actually I am having a battle with myself as I'd like to get the screwdrivers out to see exactly what the problem is. I wont though.

 

John

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In Use Sage DB+IMS Shower Screen, Niche. Others Sage BE, Mazer Mini A,. Projects Little Gem, Gaggia M7D

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To tell you the truth think that's it faulty from them! and now they have sent it out to someone else get it sent back and start again would be my suggestion. and above says send it back, how much was it if you don't mind me asking.

 

Jon


SAGE IS NOT A UPGRADE

 

 

:)

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Not so sure about that Jon. It could be Sage that do that and it is as they say in the listing manufacture refurbished. They do sell some as used. I did enquire about that aspect on another different machine and was told that they could only sell it as used along with a 14 day return option. The refurbished ones come with 12 months return to base. A lot of returns are sold as refurbished. Return with mail ordered items doesn't mean faulty these days. This unit didn't have the fault briefly.The first thing I checked was that steam did come out. The mystery is why it didn't very shortly after. Price wise it was £699.99.

 

John

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In Use Sage DB+IMS Shower Screen, Niche. Others Sage BE, Mazer Mini A,. Projects Little Gem, Gaggia M7D

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2 descales just on the off chance and no difference. The steam boiler isn't heating up at all but is filling ok. So looks like it's the problem I found on the web either or both of burnt out heater or the thermal fuse has popped. Maybe that's what 3 beeps means. It's easy to check to see if the boiler is hot - open the right hand tank emptying valve carefully as if ok rather hot water will be run into the drip tray. The other valve is for the brew boiler.

 

Sad because I would have preferred to keep it. For some reason I am not keen on spending over £1000 on a machine. If it had been £999 I would probably have bought a new one.

 

I tried one shot through it out of curiosity this morning. Not too good at all. In fact very poor. Suspect that is down to a cold steam boiler as I think some one mentioned that it uses that to preheat brew water.

 

While it was descaling I had a really good mug of monsooned via the BE so there was a compensation. ;) I machined the 2nd wall off a dual wall and it seems to hold about 1g more coffee.

 

One other aspect that I hadn't realised about these machines is that the tank can be filled with a jug via a pop up panel on the top at the front. The tank itself can be removed and filled as well. I did know that a knob under the drip tray can be used to raise the machine to make it easy to spin round but unlike the BE the tank isn't the easiest thing to handle especially when full.

 

The 2nd time I descaled I used a further press of the single button to fill the tanks for the final time then exited descale. On the other I noticed that the heaters seemed to be on while the tanks were filling as the brew boiler temperature was increasing.

 

John

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In Use Sage DB+IMS Shower Screen, Niche. Others Sage BE, Mazer Mini A,. Projects Little Gem, Gaggia M7D

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If you bide your time and continually look around, these are often on promotion somewhere. I bought one a few weeks ago for £1050 which was price matched by Lakeland so a 3 year decent warranty. I paid £850 for one a bit longer ago but it was when they were binning the red ones, that I thought was the nicest colour. If you buy it at the ecookshop they will do 12 months interest free if that appeals

http://www.ecookshop.co.uk/ecookshop/product.asp?pid=BES920UK

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It's just the numbers not available cash. Interest free credit etc isn't of any interest at all. Credit is something I haven't used for a long long time.

 

;) Maybe a better way of putting it is that for part of me spending even £999 on one seems a bit obscene. Has to be silver too.

 

John

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In Use Sage DB+IMS Shower Screen, Niche. Others Sage BE, Mazer Mini A,. Projects Little Gem, Gaggia M7D

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Funny what sleep does. Today I would be highly unlikely to spend £999 on one so for me it's refurb or used. Same reason. :o I'm also getting the impression that I don't like Sage as a company - or perhaps better put the parent company that sells them in the UK maybe world wide too.

 

John

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In Use Sage DB+IMS Shower Screen, Niche. Others Sage BE, Mazer Mini A,. Projects Little Gem, Gaggia M7D

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I know where you are coming from John. That said, Sage UK have gone downhill at a fast rate of knots, hence the importance of warranty, especially in the first year. Having said all of that, the DB is a very clever machine with lots of bells and whistles, when it works. As they sell in large volumes, even a small % of fails or returns mean it can be a lot of machines. No one knows really, if your machine was received and sent back as the owner disliked it or if it was sent back faulty and when they 'tested' it, seems fine. Coffee Classics do the repair work for Sage....they are normaly very helpful...try to ring them. If you get peter, he was always helpful

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I could take it there as that's not too far away. Maybe one of their engineers will be calling when Sage look at my BE.

 

I think that the DB is more of a used machine than a return after very little use but that's based on the look of the grouphead seal. You might say worse than my BE but I do use a grouphead cleaning brush.

 

The sellers sent me a link to a manual on the Lakeland site. This one mentions 20min and a 5min timer during descaling. The machine I have is as many 20min times as the user wants. That matches the manual on Sage's site. The 5min timer is the XL model

 

http://www.brevilleusasupport.com/bes920xl/care-and-use/care/descale-for-second-generation-software/

 

I think the 20min all the time is 3rd generation and is the one I'd want.

 

http://www.brevilleusasupport.com/bes920xl/care-and-use/care/descale-for-third-generation-software/

 

I'd extend those instructions personally.. Rinse out twice and then fill the boilers again and then exit descale. I smell duff software to save a min or two

 

I'm now awaiting what are we going to do about the problem I have with the DB. The seller and me, I am always understanding as 'it happens but wont pay return costs. The ' for 2 missing letters.

 

Sage - who is going to want to talk to call centre type when they have a problem. They are likely to get a stock answer. Parts - well it seems that part numbers can be obtained from people who do understand the machines but not ordered from them. No parts diagrams makes even that a touch difficult. There are other espresso machine repair people about and generally any make of machine can be repaired pretty easily. I also see an unbelievable price hike on one of Sage's machines. ;) It's never possible to be 100% sure of things like that but .....................

 

John

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In Use Sage DB+IMS Shower Screen, Niche. Others Sage BE, Mazer Mini A,. Projects Little Gem, Gaggia M7D

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After some thought I have decided to go for the return and repair option. They did offer a return and their engineers see if they can repair it. Before that I asked about the actual terms of the 12 month return to base warrantee.

 

Thank you for your email. Please see below our warranty terms and conditions.

 

I can confirm that this item comes with a 1 year return to base warranty starting from the date of purchase, covering manufacturing defects. Within 30 days of the original payment date we will refund the purchase price or offer a replacement if available. After 30 days we will offer a repair. If a repair is uneconomic a replacement will be offered if available. Should neither of these options be available at time of return we will offer a refund.

 

Serial/IMEI numbers of any item returned to us will be checked against the original item sent to you. If the serial number/IMEI numbers do not correspond the warranty will be void.

 

The warranty does not cover items that are returned and found to be not faulty, nor does it cover issues caused by accident, neglect, misuse, liquid or normal wear and tear.

 

Please note after 6 months a reasonable reduction will be made to cover the use of the item and the return postage cost/liability will lie with the buyer and a reasonable reduction will be made to cover the use of the item.

 

Any warranty provided is non-transferable and does not apply to businesses.

 

 

;) Oddly I do hope I get it back. Some of those terms and conditions such as the exclusions might even apply to Sage's warrantee. The after 6 months aspect is a bit odd but might just be because a replacement may not be available. The serial number etc must be internal as I haven't noticed anything on the outside.

 

John

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In Use Sage DB+IMS Shower Screen, Niche. Others Sage BE, Mazer Mini A,. Projects Little Gem, Gaggia M7D

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Looking at their warranty conditions (serial/IMEI) they may not actually have full knowledge of how to repair it themselves. I wonder if they will send the same one back, or just crack open another box for you (or refund) and sell this one as "C grade" or whatever.

 

It's just not worth the hassle with electronic stuff. I bought a refurbed vivosmart, and after a couple of weeks it went all weird. I contacted Garmin for support, incase it was a software fix, and the company (who offered a refund on return) Garmin replaced it, even though I'd bought it as a refurb, as it was a known fault...

 

I suspect the company bought up returned stuff, sold it cheap, and took the chance that some of it would be actually broken... I wonder how much stuff goes round and round in those return systems...


Did someone say coffee?

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A guarantee is presumed that in the first 6 months the fault was present at manufacture whereas in the next 6 it has become apparent

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Missy has missed that with a little bit of wrangling over the meanings of the terms they could issue a partial refund. repair and sell it again. Doubtful but ............. Really personally I don't think it's too bad other than it could mean that I just get a refund. What they haven't covered is what happened to me. Steam and very shortly after no steam. After 6 months things get a bit sketchy - how much does the "6 months rent" cost. In my view very little as I am suddenly in the need of another machine. There is no Parkers guide on used espresso machines so who can say what's fair. I suspect I would not be happy with what they would offer back or maybe I would be.

 

John

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In Use Sage DB+IMS Shower Screen, Niche. Others Sage BE, Mazer Mini A,. Projects Little Gem, Gaggia M7D

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