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Jon12345

Descaling problem - valv error

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I have a Sage Dual Boiler BES920UK and it needs descaling. I have run through the process up to opening the 2 valves at the front to let the water drain from the boilers. But when I tighten those screws back up again and press Manual, I get the valv error message. I can't seem to get past this.

 

When starting this descaling process, the machine was cold, if that makes any difference.

 

Any ideas?

 

Thanks,

 

Jon

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This problem occurs when the a boiler fails to drain, could be due to a piece of scale blocking the drain. The program cannot proceed past this step now. You can work around this by turning off the machine and leaving it off overnight. The program will reset itself and allow normal operation to proceed, but you must now remove the descaling solution in each boiler. Fill the reservoir with clean water. Turn the machine on and try to drain each boiler. Then refill and drain until all the descaling solution has cleared.


Strietman CT1, DE1PRO, EG-1 v2, HG-1, Kinu M47, Baratza Vario brew, Lido E, RB 58.5, Reneka Micro Sieve, VST

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@Bolta, there isn't any descaling solution in each boiler. The error message happens after I have opened the valves to let the clean water out. But it doesn't seem to empty properly. Water comes out but I still get the valv message. The descaling solution is just sitting in the water tank. It hasn't been through the system yet.

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You need to trick the machine into resetting to clear the error message, then start again, so follow the advice from @Bolta

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If I trick the machine into resetting, won't the error message still be there when I run the descaling process again, because it still hasn't been descaled and so will have some scale blocking the draining of the boiler?

 

I am asking this because when I tried to descale a few months back, I got the same valv message.

 

One additional thought...can you just run the descaling solution through the system as though you were making cups of coffee and frothing? I wonder if this could help remove some scale as a pre-wash type measure, in case scale is causing the valv issue.

Edited by Jon12345

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You can descale without using the program. For the brew boiler displace the water with descaling solution by opening the hot water valve to allow solution in this boiler. Turn off the machine and leave for an hour then see if the drain is cleared. Opening the water valve momentarily to start the feed pump may also help to open the drain.

 

The steam boiler drain if blocked may clear if you open the drain momentarily when under full pressure. You will not be able to get solution into this boiler unless you can drain it.

 

The brew boiler holds 400 ml and the steam boiler holds 450 ml liquid, measure what collects in the drip tray so you can determine if the contents have drained from each.


Strietman CT1, DE1PRO, EG-1 v2, HG-1, Kinu M47, Baratza Vario brew, Lido E, RB 58.5, Reneka Micro Sieve, VST

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Called Sage and they said they will have to get a repair person out. No steam from the steam wand now and some pulsating sound coming from the motor. The steam wand peeps 3 times when I lift the lever. They said a repair would normally be £300 to £400 but they can do it for £108 for me as she feels really sorry for me. Is that bull? I heard someone laughing away on the phone. I think they were playing silly buggers. Nice and professional huh?

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Hi, it is over 2 years since I got my Sage Dual Boiler, and it is driving me crazy with Valv error. I do suffer the same problem, and I have also faced with no steam from the wand, just 3 beeps when lifted the leaver. Because the machine was in warranty period (it happened around 6 months after I've purchased the machine), I didn't have to pay for repair or engineer call out. In fact, they took the machine but couldn't work out the fault, so they decided to replace steam boiler. If your machine is under 2 years old, you shouldn't pay any repair costs if machine is used in domestic environment. Well, that solved my "no steam coming" problem, but I still got same Valve error every time when I descale the machine. According to service engineer who fixed the machine, Sage DB has very fiddly sensor (it is apparently know error), and the best thing to do is just to keep trying to add more water in the tank (from the back of the machine, not the front), but not over MAX level (obviously). If the error is still showing, pour some water out, and refill it again........ This is what I have to do, and it works every time, but it is very frustrating. About Sage customer service: it is "hit and miss": while some staff is great and do take customers calls and concern's seriously, others seems cannot be bother to listen carefully, and couldn't be bothered to help customers.

Edited by abvilejn

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Me too (VALV error). Had a boiler replace after 18 months under warranty and subsequently had to pay for boiler seals for about £80 incl return postage (I think the probably didn't do them properly if they only lasted 6 months, but I don't really know). I mentioned the VALV but both times when I came to descale it returned. Just really adding a +1 so anyone contemplating is aware of the issue. I would still buy the machine, even knowing this, and with the periodic hassle of doing a rescale without the help of the automatic program, as it makes incredible coffee with great consistency. I've found the authorised repairers good, though again, I accidentally sent the machine with the tamper in and it got lost. They sent me a well used replacement after I pointed this out.

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I found 3 sets of descaling instructions on a Breville site. It seems software has been updated, one issue wasn't around for long. ;) Probably nothing to do with the VALV error but may have something to do with reports of steam failing and the 3 beeps after or during a descale. My first refurbished DB failed like this due to the pumps not filling the boilers correctly the first time I powered it up. Reports on the web suggest that the end result is a blown thermal fuse on the steam boiler and maybe a burnt out heating element. My problem seemed to be down to an airlock so the pumps made a racket pumping a mix or air and water for rather a long time. On the 2nd machine I opened both valves fully and left it like that for 1/2 hr. When I descale I also leave them open for an extra 5min after they have appeared to drain.

 

The no steam repair shouldn't cost much. It seems that the main problem is getting at the thermal fuse - it's not easy to get at so stuff has to be removed = more labour costs.

 

When draining the tanks after or during a descale the steam boiler is under pressure - that's why manuals suggest placing a flannel over the drip tray. If people report no steam to Sage it seems they are fond of telling people to descale the steam wand. I suspect that this means that steam can be selected when the boilers are at full temperature during a descale. That should be when the machine tells people to drain and refill.

 

I saw a post somewhere mentioning that the repair people think that the machine should be descaled more often than Sage suggest - every 2 months irrespective of what the machine reckons. Given how weak the usual descalers are that might be a good idea. My machine for instance boils the water for a while during heat up 3 times or more a day. I can hear it doing that right up the the point where the PID reduces the heating rate.

 

I came across another piece of information that surprised me. It seems that at one point the DB didn't have drain valves so had to be descaled manually. This was done by removing the lid and choosing which bit to remove from the top of the boilers so that descaler could be added and removed manually. Looks like it's fact going on this

 

 

That persons videos interest me. One of the things that people tend to recommend on all espresso machines is a periodic look and see to check for initial signs of water leaks. There is more than enough info in the videos to do that and a lot more. I haven't had the lid of my DB but I suspect people will find they need a new kid on the block phillips screwdriver bit to get the lid off. It's in many Chinese precision screwdriver set sometimes referred to as a No 2.5 or as none standard. ;) How do I know - 'cause I checked and concluded that the usual sizes would probably mess the screw head up.

 

One of the videos also mentions how to get the spout of the portafilter. Only just noticed that one. One thing I have found annoying about the DB one is that it doesn't drain water out very well so I want to get it off to see if I can improve it. The problem only shows up when I flush. If not careful I finish up with drips on the floor. Never happened on the BE.

 

LOL Edit - every time I find videos on various things I am amazed by what can be bought at hardware stores in the USA. I don't think similar places exist in the UK any more and may never have.

 

John

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Edited by ajohn

In Use Sage DB+IMS Shower Screen, Niche. Profitec T64. Others Sage BE, Mazer Mini A, Ceado 37J. Projects Little Gem, Gaggia M7D

:pToo many filter baskets - maybe. For sale when I get round to it. Robur Elect, Ceado 37J, Ascaso i_1,Piccino

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This is my 3rd machine. Two were replaced while in warranty. Unfortunately just happened again. Steam boiler completely gone. Out of warranty so will cost. Is this a know issue... If so should sage be picking up the bill!


Dual Boiler™ | Sage, Mazzer Major, VST 18g, 20g, Pullman 58.4mm convex, Mahlkoenig Vario, Hario grinder, Areopress, V60-1, Chemex, Kalita Wave, impress coffee brewer

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This is my 3rd machine. Two were replaced while in warranty. Unfortunately just happened again. Steam boiler completely gone. Out of warranty so will cost. Is this a know issue... If so should sage be picking up the bill!

 

Valve error, 3 beeps or what? Steam boiler gone isn't very clear.

 

John

-


In Use Sage DB+IMS Shower Screen, Niche. Profitec T64. Others Sage BE, Mazer Mini A, Ceado 37J. Projects Little Gem, Gaggia M7D

:pToo many filter baskets - maybe. For sale when I get round to it. Robur Elect, Ceado 37J, Ascaso i_1,Piccino

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Valve 3 error originally. Manually descale without running program. After reflush boiler didn't refill (getting the 3 beeps) ... Smelt burning so guess something has now gone... (no beeps at all now)


Dual Boiler™ | Sage, Mazzer Major, VST 18g, 20g, Pullman 58.4mm convex, Mahlkoenig Vario, Hario grinder, Areopress, V60-1, Chemex, Kalita Wave, impress coffee brewer

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Valve 3 error originally. Manually descale without running program. After reflush boiler didn't refill (getting the 3 beeps) ... Smelt burning so guess something has now gone... (no beeps at all now)
How did you descale without running the programme?

Sage Dual Boiler. Baratza 270. Sage Smart Grinder Pro. 18g Vst ridgeless. Motta Competition Tamper 58.4mm. Aeropress.

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Basically empty boilers. Refill. Leave empty, refill with clean water. Only way if it's stuck on valve error


Dual Boiler™ | Sage, Mazzer Major, VST 18g, 20g, Pullman 58.4mm convex, Mahlkoenig Vario, Hario grinder, Areopress, V60-1, Chemex, Kalita Wave, impress coffee brewer

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Right ok. Guess if you can smell burning then there's a fair chance the element has gone.


Sage Dual Boiler. Baratza 270. Sage Smart Grinder Pro. 18g Vst ridgeless. Motta Competition Tamper 58.4mm. Aeropress.

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Other than burning and the initial valve error and now no beeps it sounds like the problem I had with my first ebay refurbished DB. That seemed to be that the steam boiler didn't fill correctly. Result a blown thermal fuse and maybe a burnt out heater. There are old reports about this happening on the web.

 

It sounds like a very unhappy machine if even the beeps have gone. If the brew side isn't working either it might be worth checking the fuse in the plug.

 

I would have a couple of things to suggest if it was just the valve error and also descaling out of the program.

 

If you want to take a look inside this might help

 

 

Different version but generally very similar.

 

John

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In Use Sage DB+IMS Shower Screen, Niche. Profitec T64. Others Sage BE, Mazer Mini A, Ceado 37J. Projects Little Gem, Gaggia M7D

:pToo many filter baskets - maybe. For sale when I get round to it. Robur Elect, Ceado 37J, Ascaso i_1,Piccino

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Basically empty boilers. Refill. Leave empty, refill with clean water. Only way if it's stuck on valve error

 

There are other reason that the valve error might crop up - level sensing not working as it should. It's possible to visually check if the boilers are really draining via the level in the drip tray when they have emptied and also see the flow.

 

There is also the "old" way which could be useful if the problem really is scale

 

 

That way if the descaler is put in manually and removed manually and a more aggressive descaler such as Durgol is used it should be possible to get rid of any scale in it.

 

He removes a level sensor in that. Notice the discolouration. If they are plain stainless I would polish them up with wire wool. Trouble is they may be plated with something to reduce passivation problems so more care would be needed. I also suspect that there may be more than one level sensor. Problems with these will also cause the valve error.

 

When descaling out of the program I'm not sure I would let the machine fully heat up. The program mode reduces the temperature of the steam boiler.

 

John

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In Use Sage DB+IMS Shower Screen, Niche. Profitec T64. Others Sage BE, Mazer Mini A, Ceado 37J. Projects Little Gem, Gaggia M7D

:pToo many filter baskets - maybe. For sale when I get round to it. Robur Elect, Ceado 37J, Ascaso i_1,Piccino

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;) Whoops I should have mentioned checking that the level sensing probes really are insulated from the boiler - a bit of a leak around the O ring could spoil that. What I don't know is what type of O rings they are. Might be silicone.

 

John

-


In Use Sage DB+IMS Shower Screen, Niche. Profitec T64. Others Sage BE, Mazer Mini A, Ceado 37J. Projects Little Gem, Gaggia M7D

:pToo many filter baskets - maybe. For sale when I get round to it. Robur Elect, Ceado 37J, Ascaso i_1,Piccino

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Thanks John. Is it an expensive job to get it fixed?


Dual Boiler™ | Sage, Mazzer Major, VST 18g, 20g, Pullman 58.4mm convex, Mahlkoenig Vario, Hario grinder, Areopress, V60-1, Chemex, Kalita Wave, impress coffee brewer

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Afraid I have no idea. I can only go on comments on the web where repairs are mentioned by people who have done them. It seems the thermal fuse isn't that easy to get at and requires some dismantling. They don't cost much unless Sage have come up with something that looks nothing like they usually do. Dismantling to replace the heater probably involves the same work. If the burnt smell is electronics letting it's active ingredient out - smoke, that could prove rather expensive as companies who make anything usually charge excessive amounts for replacements in that area. I could for instance have paid anything from just over £100 up to £250 for a replacement timer / display board for my Mazzer.

 

I'm not at all sure how you could find out. You could try phoning coffee classics but Sage may have interfered with using that route directly and be insisting people go through them. They have on consumables and I was told all that coffee classics can provide is part numbers. There was a post on here not all that long ago by some one who did it that through Sage. Not sure for what etc. To be honest I am slowly getting the impression that Sage UK is becoming a rather silly company. Also a machine sold and acting up where some on thought that they had forked out too much money already on repairs. It wasn't clear if these previous repairs really worked. Repairs should have a warrantee.

 

I suspect your best option is to phone CC and ask if they can give you an idea of what a repair might cost. Describe what happened - all of it. Maybe Sage haven't told them not to do that. Frankly I would be surprised if Sage pay some one suitable to sit in what is essentially a call centre. I suspect that via Sage some one would take notes and and pass them to an engineer - that's based on personal experience.

 

John

-


In Use Sage DB+IMS Shower Screen, Niche. Profitec T64. Others Sage BE, Mazer Mini A, Ceado 37J. Projects Little Gem, Gaggia M7D

:pToo many filter baskets - maybe. For sale when I get round to it. Robur Elect, Ceado 37J, Ascaso i_1,Piccino

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This is my 3rd machine. Two were replaced while in warranty. Unfortunately just happened again. Steam boiler completely gone. Out of warranty so will cost. Is this a know issue... If so should sage be picking up the bill!

 

To me 2 machines under warrantee seems unusual. It would be interesting to know how long each of these and the final replacement lasted.

 

John

-


In Use Sage DB+IMS Shower Screen, Niche. Profitec T64. Others Sage BE, Mazer Mini A, Ceado 37J. Projects Little Gem, Gaggia M7D

:pToo many filter baskets - maybe. For sale when I get round to it. Robur Elect, Ceado 37J, Ascaso i_1,Piccino

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To me 2 machines under warrantee seems unusual. It would be interesting to know how long each of these and the final replacement lasted.

 

John

-

My current machine lasted 4 years. 1st machine purchased was Dec 2013... Probably 6 months... Unlucky on that one as I remember coffee classics stating that the element had burnt out. 2nd was within a year too.

Dual Boiler™ | Sage, Mazzer Major, VST 18g, 20g, Pullman 58.4mm convex, Mahlkoenig Vario, Hario grinder, Areopress, V60-1, Chemex, Kalita Wave, impress coffee brewer

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My current machine lasted 4 years. 1st machine purchased was Dec 2013... Probably 6 months... Unlucky on that one as I remember coffee classics stating that the element had burnt out. 2nd was within a year too.

 

LOL Makes me wonder if you are doing something wrong. A comment I have seen several times that seem to have come from an engineer but 2nd hand is descale every 2 months. I set mine for harder water than we actually get and the descale recently came on, around 5 months. I may have messed up descaling so did 2 on the trot, first with Sage stuff and 2nd with Puly. I noticed an improvement in boiling noises after the 2nd one. I don't put that down to Puly just that the first one didn't seem to clear the scale and I probably did do it properly. Having changed the shower screen I have found it's best to remove it as the brew tank drain more quickly so may have messed that one up - don't think so.

 

It seems there was a firmware release at some point where the heating could come on without sufficient water in the steam boiler during descaling. Not sure when but I think it was updated pretty quickly. The first refurb I had that looked to have this sort of problem didn't fill the boilers correctly. The pumps rattled away for some time. 2nd one I opened the drain valves and left it alone for 1/2hr just in case the previous one had some sort of air lock etc. If the pumps don't sound right it would be best to switch off immediately. They need to sound like they are pumping water not a mix with some air etc.

 

There is a good potted list of typical problems in this thread

 

https://www.home-barista.com/espresso-machines/breville-dual-boiler-five-years-on-t45361.html

 

O rings, 3 way and the aluminium part that the shower screen screw fits into. This is it but I doubt if the heater is needed

 

https://www.ereplacementparts.com/shower-head-complete-assembly-p-1439486.html

 

Those were stocked by that company and do fail. You can see that all sorts of parts are available from the same site. Only in the USA as some American friends of mine would say when they see things done differently in the UK and Europe. ;) Only did stock in this case. However the parts diagrams are there. Some one at Sage told me they couldn't provide those for obvious reasons.

 

So why aren't these parts on the Sage web site? A similar aluminium part was for the BE - I thought I was ordering a shower screen and thought wow that's expensive. On the BE the thermocoil unit sits on it. O rings - mine will probably fail sooner than some peoples as the machine heats up 3 times a day. It seems that the 3 way can be fixed by dismantling, cleaning and replacing O rings - I have seen a photo where there was corrosion under it - probably O rings again. That I think is the usual way of sealing them.

 

:secret:What people need to bear in mind is that all machines have problems at times. Sage may well be no worse than many others. A certain man on here also rightly suggest that people should take a look inside machines periodically to spot things before they become serious. A bit tough on what is basically a consumer orientated piece of kit though and there are a lot of O rings to check. It would be more sensible to replace the lot. At the price they sell the machines at they couldn't manage flared end stainless piping etc. Maybe not even standard push fit connections. Then comes maintenance - all act up if that isn't done to a sufficient level. I've come across people who say I use bottled water so no need to descale - numskulls in my view.

 

John

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In Use Sage DB+IMS Shower Screen, Niche. Profitec T64. Others Sage BE, Mazer Mini A, Ceado 37J. Projects Little Gem, Gaggia M7D

:pToo many filter baskets - maybe. For sale when I get round to it. Robur Elect, Ceado 37J, Ascaso i_1,Piccino

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Thanks for advice. I normally descale on average every 3 to 4 months... Always before the alarm tells me too. I do use bottled water too! Maybe I am doing something wrong. Always follow instructions to the word.


Dual Boiler™ | Sage, Mazzer Major, VST 18g, 20g, Pullman 58.4mm convex, Mahlkoenig Vario, Hario grinder, Areopress, V60-1, Chemex, Kalita Wave, impress coffee brewer

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