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About to throw Sage Barista Express through the window!

20K views 42 replies 16 participants last post by  MWJB 
#1 ·
Hi,

New joiner here. I have recently bought a BE and I just cannot seem to get a decent espresso out of it. I'm now seriously considering returning it and going to pods or something.

I have modified the quantity, the grind, the tamp (separately). The espresso always (unless I use gorilla tamp) comes out within 10 seconds of start and is generally sour, which makes me think "under extraction". I'm going through bags of beans like they are going out of fashion but can't do testing for hours as eventually I'm buzzing and can't sleep at night!
:)


Is it really this difficult? Do I have to weigh the grind by +/- 0.05g then weigh the output? I was hoping to get to a point and say "This is OK, keep these parameters and the coffee will be good for these beans."

Yours, despairingly,

Adam
 
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#6 ·
I had some beans someone gave me recently from whittards. Literally had to grind as fine as possible, add extra coffee and tamp with half my weight applied.

I've never had a problem since i abandoned supermarket beans and the whittards beans even though roasted 3 weeks earlier were awful to work with. Nice once I got it worked out,
 
#7 ·
Yes you need to weigh .

0.1g dose to nearest 1 gram out

Not needing to weight does not happen after practice . It's just something you don't make tasty espresso - I weight every dose , every shot . Given they you espresso is bad then I suggest you go back to basics to solve the problem.

But

What are the beans .

What dose are you using

How much coffee is it making in how many seconds.

What is does it taste off .
 
#8 ·
How much coffee are you putting in the basket? Have you tried upping the dose to slow the pour? Or a nutating tamp (rolling tamp) which can also slow a pour. You don't need to be 0.05g accurate but certainly 0.5g can make an appreciable difference to pour time.

Also worth remembering that some beans require a finer grind than others. It might be that the beans you're using need a grind that is finer than the BE grinder can go. Sure someone here can say what beans like a coarse grind (without me having to go digging through my grind chart).
 
#9 ·
Hi welcome to the forum.
:)
I also have a Barista Express too. It does drive me crackers sometime.

A few things I've learned from experience, if the beans are older then 4 weeks, I can't seem to get a good espresso out.

I do try to weigh sometime. However I m guilty of not weighing most times due to laziness.
:)


Medium roast beans my starting point of grind level 4, front dial to 4 o'clock (grind amount), I get approx 19 g. Tamp with good pressure. I use Motta tamper, not the one that comes with.

My water is volvic and Waitrose 50/50 mix.

Double shots. Extraction Meters get to 11-12. Decent espresso.

Play around with the settings I have never needed to go higher then grind 4.

To start off with weigh your input and output.

I'm not an expert just sharing my experience.
:)
hope it helps.
 
#10 · (Edited by Moderator)
Ok here goes , this is what I don't get about not weighing output all the time . Why start doing it the decide to stop ? Have you calibrated yourself to the nearest gram ? Does your bean always look the same volume each time as it ages ? Do you never change beans . If your not weighing , then Your using another measure to stop the shot .

Let's say it's time - the it's a number in a piece of gear - same as weight is a number on a price of gear . Except the scale is more relevant and accurate to extraction.

Your stopping by volume . Your still watching the shot - stopping by a measure - Cept it's inaccurate etc etc .

Your stopping by colour - your still watching the shot etc etc .

So in all cases your having to watch the shot ( unless your using volumetrics which on these machines are ball park only ) . So watch the shot but with a scale under it . Doesn't make you less pro - less artisan - less Analogue.

My

Local barista doesn't weight ... They may have a volumetric machine that's rock solid , they may have been using the same blend or bean for 100s of shots , you have 2-4 shots to make a day not 100s. The reason you go into this is cause you thought cafe coffee was bad ..... Cafes are inconsistent too .

Weighing will stop you wanting to throw your machine out less and drink more of want you make .. So take the scale , tare it, put it under your cup . Enjoy
 
#11 ·
Boots, you would love a cafe I am visiting today, they want me to roast for them as they have a local only policy for all products, I asked the usual questions to determine what kind of bean and roast level they are looking for, they tell me they use pre ground from booker, put some in the pf (no weighing) then run the shot to a set time......
 
#13 ·
Wish my clients set the bar that low! They are going to go from zero to hero once they get the froggy beans.

You may have to throw in some training just to make sure they don't muller your beans though. You don't want to get the blame for them making a hash of your blend.
 
#14 ·
froggystyle said:
Boots, you would love a cafe I am visiting today, they want me to roast for them as they have a local only policy for all products, I asked the usual questions to determine what kind of bean and roast level they are looking for, they tell me they use pre ground from booker, put some in the pf (no weighing) then run the shot to a set time......
And they probably have a very profitable business
:)
. One man's tasty is always another man's bin food ...

Good luck though Froggy , sometimes quality will never win through the profit motive . Hope you get through this time . PS Perhaps has for a tea when you get there
 
#15 ·
The other question is how do you like your espresso? If like me, you enjoy it on holiday in Italy, then your going to have to get a proper Espresso blend. Generally beans sold in this country are single origin ie one type of bean. For an authentic espresso you need a blend. If you've sourced your beans from an"Artisan" roaster they are probably nowhere dark enough and will make utterly horrible espresso.
 
#16 ·
NickR said:
The other question is how do you like your espresso? If like me, you enjoy it on holiday in Italy, then your going to have to get a proper Espresso blend. Generally beans sold in this country are single origin ie one type of bean. For an authentic espresso you need a blend. If you've sourced your beans from an"Artisan" roaster they are probably nowhere dark enough and will make utterly horrible espresso.
What!? Really? Are you serious?!

Seems a pretty sweeping statement to make!!
 
#18 ·
dfk41 said:
Not if you consider espresso, to be the Italian version as opposed to the drink style......too many people concentrate on single origin whereas those that regularly drink blends get to appreciate the roasting skills
Even Illy sell single origin beans. Where in Italy do you get your beans from?
 
#19 · (Edited by Moderator)
I think your referring to the skill of blending as opposed to roasting . There are skills to roasting all beans - single origin or not . One is not more or less valid than the other . You can burn or under developed single origins or blends . Plus how do you know if your blend is pre or post roasted as a blend . ? Anyway what this had to do with the OP problems until we know what coffee he is using is academic and pointless
 
#20 · (Edited by Moderator)
NickR said:
The other question is how do you like your espresso? If like me, you enjoy it on holiday in Italy, then your going to have to get a proper Espresso blend. Generally beans sold in this country are single origin ie one type of bean. For an authentic espresso you need a blend. If you've sourced your beans from an"Artisan" roaster they are probably nowhere dark enough and will make utterly horrible espresso.
Where did this come from ? One man's authentic is another man's cup of robusta requiring spoonful of sugar to make the medicine go down .

Live and let live . You ain't gonna enjoy my style , I don't enjoy yours . It does not matter one jot in the ways of the world .

What matters is the op get to tasty no matter what his preference . And a coffee that finishes extracting after 10 seconds something , somewhere is amiss . Authentic style or not .
 
#21 ·
dfk41 said:
Not if you consider espresso, to be the Italian version as opposed to the drink style......too many people concentrate on single origin whereas those that regularly drink blends get to appreciate the roasting skills
I have nothing against "Italian style" espresso - I do enjoy drinking espresso in Europe - when in Rome and all that....

What I "objected" to is the (sweeping) statement.....

If you've sourced your beans from an"Artisan" roaster they are probably nowhere dark enough and will make utterly horrible espresso.
a) I have come across several "Artisan" roasters who roast very dark... (dark enough to be shiny, oily and almost black)....

b) I have come across several "Artisan" roasters whose coffee makes very nice espresso...

Some might even equate to "both"........
 
#22 ·
Mrboots2u said:
Where did this come from ? One man's authentic is another man's cup of robusta requiring spoonful of sugar to make the medicine go down .

Live and let live . You ain't gonna enjoy my style , I don't enjoy yours . It does not matter one jot in the ways of the world .

Want matters is the op get to tasty no matter what his preference . And a coffee that extracts after 10 seconds something , somewhere is amiss . Authentic style or not .
Just a guess really. I'm sure the Sage has an adequate grinder that could choke the machine if it was fed decent beans. Lightly roasted beans tend to need a very fine grind which might be beyond its capabilities - Actually I suspect that he may be using crap super market beans.
 
#23 ·
NickR said:
Just a guess really. I'm sure the Sage has an adequate grinder that could choke the machine if it was fed decent beans. Lightly roasted beans tend to need a very fine grind which might be beyond its capabilities - Actually I suspect that he may be using crap super market beans.
He may be using stale beans from a supermarket , some of which are branded as authentic italian espresso
:)
either way , something is amiss .

Stale coffee , too small a dose , barista error , until OP comes back who knows
 
#24 · (Edited by Moderator)
Here's my suggestion:

Let's start by trying to choke the machine. If you can choke it then you know you can work back from that to a decent shot. So...

Buy some ok beans for this purpose. The guys are right that stale beans will wreck your shot regardless of what you do so how about some Union beans from Waitrose or a newly opened can of Illy beans.

My strong hunch is that the problem is down to how you are building your puck (distribution). If your build is bad then the water will find a weak spot and shoot through like a fountain. The result is an under-extracted shot - sour as hell. So...

Set your grinder to its finest setting. Grind 18g (+/- 0.1g is accurate enough, that's about one bean) of coffee into the portafilter and work on getting the distribution perfect before you tamp. It can help to grind into a small pot and shake or whisk the grounds, or you can stick a straightened paper clip to the end of a lolly stick and stir the grounds in the portafilter. You want a bed of coffee with an absolutely even density at every point in the portafilter.

Now tamp *level*, absolutely level. Let your fingers and thumb overlap the tamper base so you can also feel the edge of the portafilter basket. You will feel if you are level or not when you twist the tamper to polish. If you feel uneven density when you tamp or an unlevel puck then tap it out into a cup, whisk it and start again.

Now, once you have a perfectly distributed and level puck, using reasonable beans, try an extraction. If the machine chokes then you know your problem is your puck building. If it still gushes then the built in grinder is your prime suspect. In this case, re-box the machine and swap it.

Let us know how you get on.
 
#25 · (Edited by Moderator)
Hi,

Back again, have been playing the last few days with no success.

I'm using Has Bean's Costa Rica Sumava Monte Llano Bonito beans, recently roasted.

I have tried to vary one thing at at time:

1. Tamp (using bathroom scales), between 10kg and 30kg.

2. Weight (between 15g - 22g).

3. Grind (the BE has a stepper between 1 and 15).

I have taken Obnic's advice above and put the finest grind into a bowl then spooned 18g into the portafilter. I then tamped to about 20kg making sure it was level. The coffee did come out but took about 1 minute to start and then I got about 10-15cc before the machine shut off. It dribbled at first then had a slight pour. No gushing. The pressure gauge was at 'high'. I then did the same at grind level 4. Sour.

I'm going through beans like they are going out of fashion!

You wouldn't believe that of all things I have a PhD in chemistry.
:)


Adam
 
#26 ·
Other info:

For anything above a grind level of '4' with a tamp of ca. 20kg I get 10s before shot starts then maximum 15 seconds after to shot end. If it is ground coarser I get 10s before shot starts, a gush then 8s later it is done.

Output varies usually 40-50g for 16g input.
 
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