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MrShades Gaggia Classic PID Kit (1/32DIN) - Complete PID kit with full guide - £94

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It probably will do - that’s the best way to have it set, so it reheats relatively quickly both during and between shots.

When the Classic is cold, the poor elements are heating up MUCH more than just the water in the boiler. Once it’s all up to temp (about 20mins) it should be quite stable.

If you had it set so that it didn’t overshoot from cold then you’d be pretty disappointed in the recovery time between shots.

The PID isn’t magic - it has one set of parameters and it’s a compromise between cold startup, temp stability when idle and temp recovery between shots. There’s no single set of paratmeters that are perfect for all 3 scenarios - what’s good for one is usually detrimental to another.

Don’t judge it on cold startup stability - leave it for 20mins once warm and see what it’s like.


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.... and yes, that’s one of the main problems with the turn-off timer on the post 2015 models! Why turn a machine off just when it’s warmed up. Madness.


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2 minutes ago, MrShades said:

.... and yes, that’s one of the main problems with the turn-off timer on the post 2015 models! Why turn a machine off just when it’s warmed up. Madness.


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What is the component that sets the time in the new GC? Is it possible to adjust or bypass? 

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What is the component that sets the time in the new GC? Is it possible to adjust or bypass? 


Would be nice wouldn’t it?

Unfortunately they route a huge number of key cables via a sealed black box that resides near the pump - and there’s something in there controlling the timer.

As I’ve said before, if I were Gaggia I’d engineer it so that the timer worked as designed - but could be very easily bypassed if the end user wanted to do so (conscious of warranty compromise etc).

One day I’ll rip it all apart and find a way to do it - but that day is some way off!


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On 17/07/2019 at 18:29, Pablo El Beano said:

What would you suggest to try and tame the temp swing ? 

Here are my settings, Temp swing after warm up period is minimal, I'm set to 94.2 currently and only see it waiver to 94.1 or 94.3

P:   4.8

I:    102

D:   25

(these are from Auto-Tune)

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7 minutes ago, Pants001 said:

Here are my settings, Temp swing after warm up period is minimal, I'm set to 94.2 currently and only see it waiver to 94.1 or 94.3

P:   4.8

I:    102

?  25

(these are from Auto-Tune)

Im starting to recognise the pattern more now. On start up, I'll leave it for 15-20 mins. Flush a bit out to help with warming up the group. then it settles pretty quick to my set temp. After the first pull it will obviously drop, then climb back up within a minute or two, but then overshoot by about 5 or 6º then take quite a while to creep back down. 5 or more minutes. 

How does yours roll after pulling your shot? 

I might give these settings a bash and see how it goes tomoz. 

Edited by Pablo El Beano
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4 minutes ago, Pablo El Beano said:

How does yours roll after pulling your shot? 

Your spot on, youll get some over shoot when cold by 5 or 6 degrees. After 15 or so mins you should be very stable. Recovery is prob 5 mins to dead stable again.

Something like that.

btw, i dont flush any water pre-shot, youll open yourself up to more jumping around with cold water coming in.

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@MrShades I'm planning on knocking one of these together myself using an arduino, I have plenty experience setting up PID loops with microcontrollers but I've never used an SSR as the output before. I wonder if you could give me a few bits of info to help me write the loop:

What is the switchable frequency of the SSR? I understand that it can only be switched at zero crossing so max 100Hz - what do you see in practice?

Where do you mount the temp probe?

Is there a danger wioth a large overshoot - i guess its safe to go over 100, but by how much?

 

Any advice you can offer is appreciated!

Cheers

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4 hours ago, Robbie said:

@MrShades I'm planning on knocking one of these together myself using an arduino, I have plenty experience setting up PID loops with microcontrollers but I've never used an SSR as the output before. I wonder if you could give me a few bits of info to help me write the loop:

What is the switchable frequency of the SSR? I understand that it can only be switched at zero crossing so max 100Hz - what do you see in practice?

Where do you mount the temp probe?

Is there a danger wioth a large overshoot - i guess its safe to go over 100, but by how much?

 

Any advice you can offer is appreciated!

Cheers

I can give you some small amounts of assistance...

SSR switching frequency when used with a PID is typically no more than 2Hz.   No idea why you'd want to go much higher... though using PWM control from the Arduino ISN'T the way to do it!

Temp probe replaces the standard brew thermostat

Large oveshoot - no issue at all.... unless you're overshooting by 80+c, as the thermal fuse will then blow :)

 

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16 hours ago, MrShades said:

I can give you some small amounts of assistance...

SSR switching frequency when used with a PID is typically no more than 2Hz.   No idea why you'd want to go much higher... though using PWM control from the Arduino ISN'T the way to do it!

Temp probe replaces the standard brew thermostat

Large oveshoot - no issue at all.... unless you're overshooting by 80+c, as the thermal fuse will then blow :)

Yep, i was thinking PWM doesnt marry well with mains frequency! But 2Hz is plenty fast since i suppose its quite a muted response from the system. I'll play with a cycle time in the range of 2-4s at first and see how I get on!

That makes sense...so the SSR will replace it in the circuit and the temp probe replaces it physically...poor little guy ?

Ok fantastic, I dont see 80c coming up as ill put in an override, such as if temp>120 kill the power no matter what!

How big is the disparity between whats measured at the probe and the temp of the water in the group? is it 94 im aiming for in the group? because i note the brew thermostat switches at 107

Thanks for your help! It's appreciated :) I'm also messing around with having the cup on some scales, feeding the arduino the dose mass and having it control the pump to achieve a set brew ratio as well. and perhaps even 'dim' the pump to ~1 or 2 bar to pre infuse before the shot...so many possibilities...

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43 minutes ago, Robbie said:

Yep, i was thinking PWM doesnt marry well with mains frequency! But 2Hz is plenty fast since i suppose its quite a muted response from the system. I'll play with a cycle time in the range of 2-4s at first and see how I get on!

That makes sense...so the SSR will replace it in the circuit and the temp probe replaces it physically...poor little guy ?

Ok fantastic, I dont see 80c coming up as ill put in an override, such as if temp>120 kill the power no matter what!

How big is the disparity between whats measured at the probe and the temp of the water in the group? is it 94 im aiming for in the group? because i note the brew thermostat switches at 107

Thanks for your help! It's appreciated :) I'm also messing around with having the cup on some scales, feeding the arduino the dose mass and having it control the pump to achieve a set brew ratio as well. and perhaps even 'dim' the pump to ~1 or 2 bar to pre infuse before the shot...so many possibilities...

Disparity - well, you've almost answered your own question:  107-94=?    it's that sort of order.... however, when PID controlled (more tightly) and in a properly warmed up machine, I think it's more like -8c or -10c, than the -13c that the thermostat would indicate.

I've also got a cupboard full of Arduino gear, with Pt100 sensors hooked up and running PID code - it's great fun (though my wife thought I was crazy a few months ago, when I got very excited because I had an OLED display showing the sensor temp and an LED going on/off simulating the SSR output)!  Actually, one of my long term aims is to do something with an Arduino and 3 x SSRs - one for elements, one for pump and one for solenoid valve, and with those three you could do anything/everything - endless possibilities!

Good luck!

Meanwhile for mere mortals - there's my much simpler PID kit ?

 

Edited by MrShades
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Okay doke ill start with 10c and go from there. At least some consistancy will be better and i can knock it up if its too slow :) 

Haha - fantastic! it is fun once your imagination gets going. Can i suggest (if you use web-enabled boards such as the wemos D1) that you check out 'Blynk', it is a dead easy (and free) way to have your projects hooked up to the web with nice indications and controls on a customisable panel on your phone! (A slight tangent but here is an example I made to control/ monitor my chameleon enclosure). 

1 hour ago, MrShades said:

Meanwhile for mere mortals - there's my much simpler PID kit ?

It's a very neat solution and a nice niche you found yourself...good job!

Thanks again for your help :)

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Just finished my PID install c/o MrShades, fantastic bit of kit, easy to read instructions ..went like clock work..
Thank you MrShades  

Cheers Craig in NZ

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Just finished my PID install c/o MrShades, fantastic bit of kit, easy to read instructions ..went like clock work..
Thank you MrShades  
Cheers Craig in NZ


Great stuff - well done Craig, nice work!



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Lots of everything: machines, grinders, roaster, beans, tampers, baskets, blah, blah

However - Too much is never enough!

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Another happy customer! The kit is excellent, with all required materials provided and excellent instructions. The aforementioned advice to print and read beforehand is reccomended! 

I fitted the temperature probe with the boiler in situ, the brave/lazy choice, but not too challenging. 

Had a very minor issue with one of the wires, but MrShades resolved the issue immediately. 

I've gone with the butt hinge install too, as my setup is a little cramped. I used the adhesive strip provided as a pad on the bottom of the pid enclosure. Think it looks pretty pro, even though I say so myself ?

As for the coffee in the cup, I noticed a immediate improvement. Glad I didn't hold off on doing this. 

20190803_210453.jpg

Edited by 2cups
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Thanks to MrShades for his excellent PID kit.  Installing it was straightforward thanks to his excellent instructions.

I've fixed the PID box to the back of the machine to keep it looking as normal without any odd protuberance.  After all, I don't need to track the temperature the whole time. 

But the temperature is clearly visible when needed.

Another satisfied customer. ?

36200304_Unknown.thumb.JPG.b8a75dd57b13a6b10284800d217b9635.JPG

 

 IMG_1603.thumb.JPG.dd018eb84d97d31ac9e39606aae472ed.JPG

 

 

Edited by MartinJ
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MartinJ, that's a neat idea and I'm thinking that it will pass the wife test!  On the basis it her machine of 10 years (which I bought for her when we were dating as a demonstration of my affection - ironically it was me who brought it into use circa 12 months ago), I cannot start modding it without her approval! Our machine similarly sits under a kitchen cupboard (next to the Sage grinder) - I assume you have a reflective surface on the underside of the kitchen cupboard?

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Hi @MrShades,

Am i right in thinking that your PID kit doesn't include a shot time / pre soak feature?

Also, how much would delivery be to the UK?

Thanks
Rhys

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Hi [mention=339]MrShades[/mention],
Am i right in thinking that your PID kit doesn't include a shot time / pre soak feature?
Also, how much would delivery be to the UK?
Thanks
Rhys


There is only one Gaggia kit that I know of that includes a shot timer and preinfusion as options...

The shot timer is what it is - as good as any watch - but no, my PID doesn’t include any shot timer functionality

The preinfusion function is identical to flicking the brew switch off, waiting a few seconds and then flicking it on again - it’s that basic. In my opinion a dimmer switch on the pump to provide a low pressure and variable preinfusion, without disengaging and engaging the solenoid valve, is a MUCH better preinfusion function/method. So yes, you’re also correct in that my PID doesn’t include any preinfusion function - but IMHO it’s largely worthless (and if you want it then just flick the switch off/on - or do it properly with a dimmer switch / pressure gauge mod.... which does much much more!

Price of the kit is in the thread title - which includes shipped to the UK.

As always, contact me via PM on here if you’d like to know more or would like to order one.


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Brill thanks - will be in touch for a kit. Just need to source a pressure gauge for my (non original) portafilter!

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On 18/08/2019 at 22:31, Paper Lawyer said:

MartinJ, that's a neat idea and I'm thinking that it will pass the wife test!  On the basis it her machine of 10 years (which I bought for her when we were dating as a demonstration of my affection - ironically it was me who brought it into use circa 12 months ago), I cannot start modding it without her approval! Our machine similarly sits under a kitchen cupboard (next to the Sage grinder) - I assume you have a reflective surface on the underside of the kitchen cupboard?

Yes, a strategically placed mirror - £6 from Boots.  It works very well.

IMG_5153.thumb.JPG.315dcc7742368adff3a5dcbbb6e538a8.JPG

Edited by MartinJ
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23 minutes ago, MartinJ said:

Yes, a strategically placed mirror - £6 from Boots.  It works very well.

IMG_5153.thumb.JPG.315dcc7742368adff3a5dcbbb6e538a8.JPG

Love it. 

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Vesuvius + Niche Zero // V60 + MBK Aerspeed

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Thanks for posting the clever solution - the underside of our kitchen cabinet is neither as clean or as uncluttered (fluorescent light underneath) but that is definitely a possible approach.

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I'm glad you like it. I know I'm in danger of collecting the nerdish idea of the week award, but I like the way the double reflection is the right way round and the red 93.0 magically appears between the cups.

Edited by MartinJ
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Hey @MrShades, ive had this pid for a while however im currently having some issues with it and not sure where to start, when i first turn on the machine it overshoots to 98 degrees basically boiling, this means i have to flush it after a while to get rid of the steam and wait for the temp to stabilise. and the other issue is after pulling a shot and steaming then cooling down to 93, it heats up to 93 and then keeps creeping up by 0.1 degrees a few seconds. Any idea how to fix these issues. TIA harry :) (USING A CLASSIC PRO 2019)

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