Jump to content

Recommended Posts

For years, Decent has had a big problem: our machines have been much discussed, but unavailable.

 

In Korea they even created a slogan about us that was much used in Korea social media: "the genius machine that no-one can buy".

 

So.... Bugs and I decided that the focus from January to June was to get our act together and learn how to reliably ship machines at a pace of 1000 machines per year (20/week, 80/month).

 

But we're not there yet.

 

Below is how many machines we've shipper per month, since inception. We're on track to have shipped 267 machines at the end of April, which is 67 machines per month.

 

We're still running a backlog (19 machines, at the moment, about a week's work), whereas I'd hoped we'd have machines in stock by now.

 

So... this is the big reason we weren't at the Boston SCA show.

 

We're still attracting orders faster than we can make machines. It would be irresponsible for us to focus on marketing before we improve our ability to deliver.

 

Once this situation reverses, you'll start seeing Bugs, Shin, Hannifa and myself exhibiting at trade shows around the world.

 

-john

 

screen 2019-04-16 at 2.04.52 PM.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

john, quick question which i think i've read different answers for - what is the highest flow rate that the decent can manage?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
john, quick question which i think i've read different answers for - what is the highest flow rate that the decent can manage?

6 ml/s, we can always do, and maintain accurate temperature.

 

8 ml/s, we can do for about 10 seconds without a temperature drop. That should be plenty for any espresso pre-infusion, but this rate cannot be sustained at the moment if you want to make a pour-over.

 

At the moment, this is with a room-temperature water tank, with a cold-to-warmup time of about 5 minutes.

 

We're going to add an option to create a shot profile which pre-heats the water tank, up to 60ºC. That will mean a longer cold-to-warmup time, but I expect we'll be able to do 12 ml/s, and maintain temperature. That's as fast a flow as I've seen on any espresso machine.

 

Essentially, this upcoming feature lets you trade off "faster warmup time" for "faster flow rate".

 

From memory, each of our two pumps can do something around 15 ml/s each, when there's no pressure. The constraint is temperature accuracy, and that's largely determined by how much current we have available, and how much heat we need to add to the water. Going from 20ºC -> 90ºC is very different from 60ºC->90ºC. You can see that we can more than double the flow if our water is "sous vide" style preheated to 60ºC.

 

-john

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

How do you recommend using the skale? Can it be used with the drip tray on it premanently?

Putting the skale with the stand under the drip tray would not damage the load cell if left with the drip tray on it for a period of time?Should the drip tray be unloaded every time after extractions complete?Does the skale have a bluetooth auto tare when extraction begins or something like that or you have to do it manually after adding the cup on the tray ?

 

If you put the skale on the tray will it not hide the mirror view of the bottomless pf ?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

This is the "beta 0.2" version I've got in my hands. Getting closer to something I'll be happy with. Probably still another 3 months to go, until I have saleable quantities of this new product.

 

-john

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
How do you recommend using the skale? Can it be used with the drip tray on it premanently?

Putting the skale with the stand under the drip tray would not damage the load cell if left with the drip tray on it for a period of time?Should the drip tray be unloaded every time after extractions complete?Does the skale have a bluetooth auto tare when extraction begins or something like that or you have to do it manually after adding the cup on the tray ? If you put the skale on the tray will it not hide the mirror view of the bottomless pf ?

 

The Atomax Skale 2, which is the only bluetooth scale that works with Decent at the moment (and is shipping) works best under the drip tray.

 

Yes, it auto-tares on shot start. You do not need to empty the drip tray after each shot. I empty it when the water tank goes empty (after about 20 espressos).

 

I haven't seen any damage to the load cell. We've sold about 200 of these for under-drip tray use.

 

And yes, a scale on TOP of the drip tray hides the mirror. Underneath is soooo muchhhh better.

 

skale_stand_detail.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

This is the "beta 0.2" version I've got in my hands. Getting closer to something I'll be happy with. Probably still another 3 months to go, until I have saleable quantities of this new product.

 

-john

 

3 months?! :(

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
And yes, a scale on TOP of the drip tray hides the mirror. Underneath is soooo muchhhh better.

is this an intended function of the new decent scale? or is it more of a 'on top of drip tray' thing, like you had at MICE a couple of months ago?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It strikes me that whilst the Skales display is pointing up, and thus good for reading and operating whilst the scale is under the drip tray the Decent Scale looks like it would be difficult to read and operate in this position.

 

What are your thoughts on this John?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The Skale can be operated & seen from within at least one of the availiable skins.


Ron 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
The Skale can be operated & seen from within at least one of the availiable skins.

 

I thought this may be it - so once the the Decent scale or Skale is in place, there isn'y much need to look/touch it?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That's what I'm hoping...


Ron 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

yeah wouldn't be overly concerned about not being able to read the scale once it's under the drip tray, given that you can see the finish weight of the shot on the tablet.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
is this an intended function of the new decent scale? or is it more of a 'on top of drip tray' thing, like you had at MICE a couple of months ago?

 

The Decent Scale is prettier than the Atomax Skale, and much more water resistant. It's meant to be a general purpose scale, not just for use with our espresso machine.

 

At a fairly low price of USD$99, an open API, I'm hoping lots of app developers will support it, as there currently doesn't exist an open-api 0.1g food-grade scale.

 

The Decent Scale does work underneath the drip tray (see photo) but for this use, I think the Atomax Skale's tilted display is better in this case. However, the Skale is not very water resistant, so it's a judgement call, which you prefer.

 

I'll continue to support (and sell) both the Skale and the Decent Scale, for the indefinite future. Choice is good.

 

3 months?! :(

 

Yep: two months to make 1000 of these, once the bugs are ironed out. AT LEAST another month to iron out all the bugs. So, at least 3 months. I don't want to "go fast" and make 1000 scales that aren't very good.

 

It strikes me that whilst the Skales display is pointing up, and thus good for reading and operating whilst the scale is under the drip tray the Decent Scale looks like it would be difficult to read and operate in this position. What are your thoughts on this John?

 

You can judge for yourself (photos below) but as written above, I generally agree with you.

 

screen 2019-04-19 at 10.24.57 AM.jpg

 

 

I thought this may be it - so once the the Decent scale or Skale is in place, there isn'y much need to look/touch it?

 

Correct: if you're using the Decent Scale on the Decent Espresso machine. Or with an app, which will likely also re-display the weight.

 

yeah wouldn't be overly concerned about not being able to read the scale once it's under the drip tray, given that you can see the finish weight of the shot on the tablet.

 

yep

 

-john

 

IMG_0128b.jpg

Edited by decent_espresso

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

[ATTACH=CONFIG]40035[/ATTACH]

that looks awesome. is the scale tall enough to support the drip tray? or does it need something like the skale stand to boost its height?

Edited by woodhouse
rtfm

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
that looks awesome. is the scale tall enough to support the drip tray? or does it need something like the skale stand to boost its height?

 

There will need to be something 3D printed between the scale and the drip tray. We're working on it now.

 

John - will your s/w support the Felicita scale?

 

No. I consider that scale to be a blatant knockoff of the Acaia, and so I would not want to support it.

 

I agree with James on this topic.

 

 

Even if Acaia are not necessarily my friends: they've innovated and made a good product and that should be respected.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think fortunately for you John, your product is so complex it would be difficult for anyone to copy much more than the basic design, which there is little incentive to copy as it is not the design that makes it unique (although it is a unique design).

 

In some cases you can see why someone might be compelled to buy a cheap Chinese knock off. In cases like Push they launched an extremely premium product, arguably neccessery for a niche market. The Chinese knock offs (and German) that quickly followed were inevitable as the majority of the coffee market struggle to comprehend spending £140+ on a tamper, no matter how well engineered. It would be interesting to know how much market share Push truly loose in the wealthier high end buyers market.

In the case of Felicitia I find it hard to comprehend, the scale is still well into the high end price bracket for a scale and not that much cheaper than an Acaia. At least they managed to design their own scale I guess...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In this video you are using a ''Damian's Skale Caddy'' .

 

 

Do you know if it can be combined with the drain kit ?

 

plumbed_drip_tray_white.jpg

Does the skale fit under the tray with the drain kit when using this printed mod?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
In this video you are using a ''Damian's Skale Caddy'' .

Do you know if it can be combined with the drain kit ?

Does the skale fit under the tray with the drain kit when using this printed mod?

 

Damian's design will not work with a scale underneath, if the drip tray is plumbed. The problem is that the plumbing pulls on the weighing platform and prevents the espresso from being weighed.

 

With a plumbed in drip tray, the workaround is to connect the drip tray cover directly to the scale. A few decent espresso customers on the owners forum have made 3D designs that do this. It's a variation on the same idea as ONA's STEM, except integrated into the scale directly. https://onacoffee.com.au/product/stem/

 

We're also working on our own design to do this, but honestly, the effort is very much distributed among many people, and were all trying to create something that will work.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
In some cases you can see why someone might be compelled to buy a cheap Chinese knock off. In cases like Push they launched an extremely premium product, arguably neccessery for a niche market. The Chinese knock offs (and German) that quickly followed were inevitable as the majority of the coffee market struggle to comprehend spending £140+ on a tamper, no matter how well engineered. It would be interesting to know how much market share Push truly loose in the wealthier high end buyers market.

 

My personal preference is that if someone invents something that is really awesome but they price it out of my range, I do without it. I don't look for a knockoff.

 

For me, as somebody who invests a lot of time and emotion and a little bit of money into creating an object, I feel like the person who did that has the absolute right to decide who should get the object and at what cost. If they make a bad decision and charge too much, the market will react and they won't sell much. Maybe they'll change their mind and lower their prices. They might make a bad choice, but it's their right to make that bad choice, not ours. If we don't act in this ethical manner, we disincentivize people to create wonderful new things.

 

You are of course free to have your own opinion :-)

 

This opinion of mine comes from having worked in the music business for a long time. I sometimes found absolutely brilliant musicians who were control freaks about how their music might be released, with the final effect that nobody ever heard of them. I disagreed, tried to convince them, but ultimately it's their right to self-destruct.

 

 

In some cases you can see why someone might be compelled to buy a cheap Chinese knock off. In cases like Push they launched an extremely premium product, arguably neccessery for a niche market. The Chinese knock offs (and German) that quickly followed were inevitable as the majority of the coffee market struggle to comprehend spending £140+ on a tamper, no matter how well engineered. It would be interesting to know how much market share Push truly loose in the wealthier high end buyers market.

 

The Acaia is definitely an expensive product to manufacture, and that's probably why the Felicita is also expensive.

 

As it happens, someone in Shanghai posted a few days ago that they will sell a knockoff of our machine. Their offering price is only USD$100 less than what we charge, which gives you an idea of our build cost, if a knockoff can't be made much cheaper. This company has successfully knocked off La Marzocco and Slayer in the past, at a much lower price than the real thing. At any rate, I'm not too concerned, because it's fueling a lot of discussion among coffee fans in China, and as soon as we get our "made in Hong Kong" certification, we will be able to import to China, and that won't be good news for the knockoff company. I've also heard through the grapevine that their engineers are unable to believe that we can control flow to the accuracy that we do. They don't understand understand how it's possible.

 

-john

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

IMG_0113.jpg

 

More than a few Decent customers are crafty and do things like 3D printing, wood turning, and painting.

 

I have an idea that will help the painters among them flex their creative muscles, and in the process, I can get rid of some cosmetically-imperfect parts which are gathering dust.

 

Chassis parts that have a defect in their paint can't be used. But, they're perfect if you want to paint your own chassis.

 

I have a few boxes of this stuff, so I'm selling it at 60% to 80% off to people who want to repaint them. Some of the leg bases need a bit of (re)bending, which causes cracks in the paint. No problem, if you're planning on repainting anyway.

 

As part of this effort, anyone who wants to "commercialize" their artistic brilliance is encouraged to open a store on Etsy.com. I've started a list https://www.etsy.com/hk-en/people/sgsmm8ci/favorites/decent-espresso-mods and will be adding to it as Decent mods appear on Etsy. My intention is to promote these artists to future and current customers, as it helps everyone out.

 

As an aside, I've recently had 100 right-angled cables made for us, for the DE1XL model. However, they're also potentially useful to DE1+/DE1PRO users who want to push their espresso machine as far back against their kitchen wall as possible.

 

All the above are available at this growing "Accessories" page: https://decentespresso.com/accessories

 

-john

screen 2019-04-20 at 2.01.31 PM.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

IMG_0139 copy.jpg

 

I’ve been working with Scott Rao @whereisscottrao for quite a long time, to develop a V60 portafilter basket.

 

This upcoming basket converts our espresso machine in an automated pour-over machine. One which has control over the grounds agitation created, and that’s pretty interesting.

 

The controlled water pressure creates vortex *just* deep enough to circulate, but not so deep that the water channels through filter. The spacing of each water stream is calibrated to be just the width of each separate coffee ground vortex.

 

The end result is low-channeling/high-extraction-rate pour over coffees, totally automated and dependable. With an espresso machine.

 

Today I received what I hope is the final iteration of our work together. We’re trying to decide on 0.4mm or 0.5mm holes, 11 or 12 of them, and two different inside hole distances. I’m UPSing them right now to Scott in California for evaluation.

 

-john

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Just arrived in our repair shop: an ultrasonic cleaner, which we've filled with "Cafiza" espresso machine cleaning liquid.

 

When customers send their machines to us for repair, as part of the process we'll put all removable brass and metal parts into this bath for 24h.

 

-john

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

de1xl_newcart.jpg

 

We're just about finished building two variations on the same coffee cart: a two grinder/one DE1XL table (you've seen that one already in my posts) and a one grinder/two DE1XL table. Both use a $450 bamboo table from IKEA.

 

I've filmed Fabrice during the measuring, cutting and building of these carts, and we'll soon have a video series of all the steps, along with 2D drawings and templates, so you can do this yourself (or get a local handyman to do it).

 

I've also recorded a bunch of footage explaining the DE1XL model, used both countersunk or tabletop. That's what you can see in the photo above.

 

The DE1XL model is just about ready to start shipping and will be our latest model. We're expecting the metal parts to arrive in the next two weeks. The only final details we're still nailing down is the opacity and material of the white model's back cover.

 

As I find time to do some video editing, these movies will get posted, hopefully over the next 2 weeks.

 

-john

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


  • About:

    Coffee Forums UK is the UK's premier coffee forum Started in June 2008 by Glenn Watson, we now have more than 22000 mainly UK based members, and welcome more than 3000 members and visitors from around the world each day! With strategic investment and digital expertise from the Jackson Lockhart team (Tait Pollack and Adam Bateman), we are taking Coffee Forums UK to the next level, and are delighted to share the journey with you.

    New Members:

    We are often referred to as the friendliest forum on the web and we look forward to welcoming you onboard.

    Terms of Use

    Advertising

    Coffee Forums Media Kit

    Buy Advertising Space

    Donate

    Get Your Supporter Badge (per year)

×
×
  • Create New...