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If you cannot reward someone for spending more than the next person then there is something wrong. it is a basic sales ploy.....what better way to increase initial turnover? A lot of people will not be an early adopter as they want others to suffer the problems. I swore I would not early adopt again after an experience with one well known brand, but I was going to (and probably am), I would want one of the first machines and not have to wait, and if that means adding on a few extras, so be it. If you do not want a machine @Phil104, then thats a fair point to take.......as owner of a new company looking to make a niche I think it is fair to try and persuade us to part with as much dosh as possible

 

A reasonable point - if you want to get your hands on one … and you're right - I wouldn't want to be an early adopter, although it sounds a very attractive proposition.

 

I wasn't being entirely serious about the exchange rate, which is up and down - it dropped after Brexit, rose again at the beginning of July, dropped again the week before, and rose again this last week but not to the level of early July - although since the percentage change in the last 24 hours was +0.66% (in favour of the pound), in the scheme of things, assuming it keeps relatively steady, it's not going to make much difference set against the cost of shipping and taxes.

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@decent_espresso. If we can put down deposits from here I'd also like to put down one for one of the earlier machines.


Londinium R, Hg-one, button tamper, vst,ims,V60,siphon,aeropress...and still no idea

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I think @Lefteye ought to be first on here (or joint first LOL) since he was kind enough to bring this to our attention

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Very kind @dfk41. Was going to suggest we did a joint review - the noobie and the old hand!! Still think that would work as this machine seems to offer both of us fun and games.


Londinium R, Hg-one, button tamper, vst,ims,V60,siphon,aeropress...and still no idea

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What's the price estimate for the UK market?

Going up everyday with what's happening with the exchange rate.

 

The 220V components are a bit more expensive, and EU safety certification requires a few more components than UL, for example double-safety failovers for overheating instead of single fail-overs.

 

So, the 220V version will be slightly more expensive than the US version, maybe 15% more.

 

We're probably looking at a UK price around £850 to £900 for the DE1, assuming the exchange rates don't change too much more.

 

If you cannot reward someone for spending more than the next person then there is something wrong. it is a basic sales ploy.....what better way to increase initial turnover? A lot of people will not be an early adopter as they want others to suffer the problems. I swore I would not early adopt again after an experience with one well known brand, but I was going to (and probably am), I would want one of the first machines and not have to wait, and if that means adding on a few extras, so be it. If you do not want a machine @Phil104, then thats a fair point to take.......as owner of a new company looking to make a niche I think it is fair to try and persuade us to part with as much dosh as possible

 

It is a common strategy, but that doesn't mean that consumers like it. :D

 

I wouldn't be a fan of prepaying more to get a machine sooner. We need to celebrate delayed gratification more than we sometimes do. I don't see what the problem is with accepting only a limited number of these can be made, that revenue will be necessary to build them, and that if you order one you get an estimate of when it will be available - and if it's six months, it's six months. As a purchaser, you just plan on that basis.

 

 

YET ANOTHER PROPOSAL (YAP)

 

We had a company lunch meeting yesterday, it involved a chicken curry and a bottle of red, and we banged around various ideas and here is what we're thinking of proposing:

 

  1. We build both the DE1 ($999) and DE1+ ($1999) machines at the same time, releasing the same number of both models each day.
  2. Machines get sent out on a first come, first served basis. Ie: order first, get your machine first. 50% down.
  3. If there is more demand for the less expensive model (likely) then the delivery time will be longer, whereas if you buy the more expensive machine, you'll need to wait less to get your machine.
  4. Accessories, if you buy any, will be shipped to you either right away (we have them in stock) or with your machine, as you wish.
  5. Nobody gets to the front of the queue by paying more

I was told that this is what Slayer does to manage their less vs more expensive production lines.

Edited by decent_espresso

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I think you guys have to do whatever makes sense to you.....everyione will go along with it. At the end of the day, you are trying to find a fair way of selling these. the advantage we have I suppose, is that you will be able to say, we have x number of 220 volt machines so we are competing for those. You cannot please everyone all the time! I suppose the alternate is for those who really want them to order the dearer model for which there is bound to be a smaller initial demand

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Forgive my geekiness but... best manufacturing practice would be to build using a mixed line (i.e. the line can build either machine) and to build in the order that orders are received, and only to build against an order i.e. no inventory machines. That way you will be able to offer the shortest 'time to delivery' whilst not tying up capital as work in progress.

 

That is unless the + machine is so different that the manufacturing process takes notably longer, and the orders are so variable that some days you need none and other days loads, in which case you run a second line for + machines again building only against orders but thereby ensuring this work does not interfere with the lead time for the basic machines.

 

The hardest idea to accept is that an idle production line is not a problem if you have no orders to fulfill.

 

Sorry... sometimes can't hold back the geek inside.


Espresso: Ceado E92 (modified for single dose); Vesuvius; VST baskets and refractometer.

Other: Aeropress, Sowden and Alessi Moka Pot; Mazzer Robur doser with Auber timer; Mazzer Mini E; Expobar Leva Dual Boiler

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@Obnic does that mean you would have to wait few extra days to ensure it is tested and what not? I can imagine they are being built *wherever*, bringing the time towards a fortnight?

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@Obnic does that mean you would have to wait few extra days to ensure it is tested and what not? I can imagine they are being built *wherever*, bringing the time towards a fortnight?

 

Oh that's a big question... a short answer is

 

It means that if I say it takes five days from order to delivery, I can definitely keep my promise without tying up large amounts of money in prebuilt but unsold units.

 

These units, if they sit sound then depreciate as time passes: perhaps they have out of date software now or they're last years design so have to be sold at a discount or worse you built a batch thinking there would be demand that never appears. Money you would have spent on the latest whistle can't be spent because it's tied up in inventory and warehouse space rental. It slows realization of innovation keeps the unit costs up so the price up too.

 

Building to order is the best of both worlds, promises the customer can depend upon at a keen price, and efficient operations, fast innovation and good cash management.

 

For large operations, counterintuitively, it generally means much faster delivery to customers and less mistakes because the business does not get caught up in managing queues, and it's more likely to get it right first time.

 

If you are interested, this is the life's work of Taichi Ohno and is widely credited with why Toyota became the worlds largest car maker so fast.

Edited by Obnic

Espresso: Ceado E92 (modified for single dose); Vesuvius; VST baskets and refractometer.

Other: Aeropress, Sowden and Alessi Moka Pot; Mazzer Robur doser with Auber timer; Mazzer Mini E; Expobar Leva Dual Boiler

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Ah I see. Thanks for clarification.

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Yeh... too much geek first thing in the morning


Espresso: Ceado E92 (modified for single dose); Vesuvius; VST baskets and refractometer.

Other: Aeropress, Sowden and Alessi Moka Pot; Mazzer Robur doser with Auber timer; Mazzer Mini E; Expobar Leva Dual Boiler

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I've skimmed read this thread with some interest. Perhaps this is a Novel suggestion, but why not build a few prototypes and get them tested by people that know what they are doing. Use the feedback to finalise the machine for production. Then....and I know this is novel, but bear with me....actually build some to either deliver to retailers to sell or sell direct, rather than selling products you have not yet built as was done by another entrepreneur back in the 70s.

 

You have 100s, perhaps 1000s of ideas and that's good, you will get interesting suggestions by the dozen from people who don't understand how the machine works, how production works and the mechanical/technical problems of doing what they suggest. You need to decide on what the machine is and will be when it launches, worry about post launch problems and only then, once it's stable, think about future developments...otherwise your selling smoke.


 My reviews at http://coffeestuff.byethost12.com/ (now ad free)  Various Machines and grinders, Amazon Dalian 1kg Drum Roaster: My reviews at https://coffeeequipmentreviews.wordpress.com/ (old site)

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.... but why not build a few prototypes and get them tested by people that know what they are doing.

 

Good idea in theory but look at Reiss's experience with LI when he had to deal with loads of 'experts' in the US and Australia trashing the machine for one reason or another.

 

.... but bear with me....actually build some to either deliver to retailers to sell or sell direct, rather than selling products you have not yet built as was done by another entrepreneur back in the 70s.

 

Why would a retailer want to stock and sell a machine if the manufacturer is also retailing direct at a much lower price?


Londinium-R - EKS43 running SSP Silver Knight burrs

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Good idea in theory but look at Reiss's experience with LI when he had to deal with loads of 'experts' in the US and Australia trashing the machine for one reason or another.

 

Reiss was trashed because he did not do an extensive R & D and sent machines out, amidst claims made by him on various forums that the relatively untested L1 was the best, most stable machine in the world. A lot of early machines had issues. Once resolved, then I think the machine meets with early expectations

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Why would a retailer want to stock and sell a machine if the manufacturer is also retailing direct at a much lower price?

 

I did clearly write OR


 My reviews at http://coffeestuff.byethost12.com/ (now ad free)  Various Machines and grinders, Amazon Dalian 1kg Drum Roaster: My reviews at https://coffeeequipmentreviews.wordpress.com/ (old site)

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I'm trying to make the DE1 hacker friendly and could use some advice on what to provide to make the machine easy to hack, using an Arduino, Raspberry Pi, whatever.

 

I'm putting the finishing touches on what will hopefully be the printed circuit boards in production machines, and would like to check to see if there is anything I have missed.

 

The machine is designed in such a way that safety is guaranteed by the hardware, not the software, and external software access cannot change anything that we think might result in damage or a safety risk.

 

Hardware:

 

  • Communication: the DE1 is set up to communicate serially with a 3.3V external device (such as the Arduino Pro 328) via a ribbon cable.
  • Power: 24V and 3.3V are supplied.
  • Analog Inputs: 6 spare unassigned ADC inputs (0 - 3.3V), and 2 extra inputs intended for extra pressure sensors.
  • Analog Outputs: the conditioned group pressure sensor output is available as an analog signal.
  • Other: a SPI port that could also be used as GPIO inputs or outputs.

 

Software:

At the moment, this is all speculative. I haven't written the software for external access yet.

All of this information and control will be available via the serial port:

 

  • Sensors: Read any sensor, such as temperature, pressure, water level, spare ADC.
  • Solenoids: Read the current solenoid configuration, and request a configuration.
  • Pumps: Request a (safe) pressure or flow rate from a pump.
  • Heaters: Request a (safe) temperature from a heater.
  • State machine: Request that the state machine do something. For example: "make espresso", "do steam", etc.
  • Bluetooth: All of the above will be accessible via Bluetooth as well.

 

Did I miss anything? I welcome any suggestions!

 

------------------------------

Ray

Internals Engineer at Decent Espresso

Edited by Rheas

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When I first read this I was concerned but as I see you're also from decent then I think this is a great idea. Doesn't it somehow spoil your plans for the De1+ though. I'm no programmer so sadly can't give advice but the fact it will be adjustable is great in my opinion.


Londinium R, Hg-one, button tamper, vst,ims,V60,siphon,aeropress...and still no idea

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When I first read this I was concerned but as I see you're also from decent then I think this is a great idea. Doesn't it somehow spoil your plans for the De1+ though. I'm no programmer so sadly can't give advice but the fact it will be adjustable is great in my opinion.

 

Yeah I'm a bit confused, as when I suggested this it was met with 'but we can't just give you all the features on the base model'. Which is essentially what this would provide surely?


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Yeah I'm a bit confused, as when I suggested this it was met with 'but we can't just give you all the features on the base model'. Which is essentially what this would provide surely?

We did discuss this question in house, and there was a question as to whether open source / free apps should also work on the DE1 or just the DE1+. We decided that we preferred to encourage an open source / tinkerer ecology around our espresso machines and that the DE1 should be able to run the same programs as the DE1+.

 

In practical terms this means that if you buy a DE1 and some really cool free program does something awesome with the DE1, then you can download that program, and add that functionality. It also means that we can learn from what other people have added to the DE1, and we can reimplement the same ideas, in our own way, and try to get people to pay for them. Obviously, people won't pay for the same idea unless it's implemented in a way that adds significant value.

 

It's very much like how you can buy LibreOffice https://www.libreoffice.org/ as your word processor but if you prefer the Microsoft alternative, you can pay for MS Word.

 

To give another example: I know a high school chemistry professor who wants to turn the DE1 into a piece of lab equipment, with his own software. That's unlikely to be software that we'd write, but it's something I want to make possible.

 

The more cool things there are to do with our espresso machine, the more machines we'll sell. "Open and libre" is good business.

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VIDEO: Decent Espresso Factory Prototype: the guts are all working!

 

 

We're waiting for the PC board (coming at the end of next week), portafilter and group head handle, drip tray and water tank (still working through difficulties getting these parts made) and then we can show you the working DE1, close to how it'll actually be made.

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Photo: wood handles for our espresso machine. We have two companies making handles out of wood for our espresso machine, and we'll pick the nicer of the two. This is the first to arrive.

This handle is matte stained Bubinga wood. http://www.wood-database.com/bubinga/ -- I hadn't heard of this wood, but after a bit of googling I found that it's very common in drum kits, which is a good endorsement of its durability!

FYI we found that using wood for the handles was more expensive per-piece compared to plastic, but not more expensive in the near term, A plastic mould charge is several thousand dollars, which makes a lot of wood handles! A wooden handle can be made on a simple lathe with a very inexpensive guide.

 

13995470_532340263628157_1753351765690152432_o.jpg

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Have you checked out Protomold - very affordable injection molding, a simple part like that should only cost a couple of thousand dollars for the mold... but this may still be more expensive in the near term as you say.

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Bubinga is used in drum kits because of its resonance, not necessarily because its durable - drum kits have a layer of lacquer usually over the top, but I believe bubinga is actually pretty durable (and its fun to say, too)

 

Its an amazingly springy wood in sheet form, but it is also rather beautiful, which is another part of its desirability.


Home: Vesuvius + EK

Work: Aeropress + EK

 

Founder of upgradeitis anonymous - "The first step is admitting you no longer have any money"

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Yes to the wooden handles! They use bubinga in some (expensive) guitars too - as an alternative to rosewood. Used in Rickenbacker necks - and often in the bodies of basses. It's a good stiff wood... As you say nicely durable.

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Also - nice to see your new bite-sized Scott Rao vids. As a filmmaker I spend far too much time telling companies that short punchy vids will do so much more for them than longer pieces. 'Oh - we completely agree - that's why we've settled on 15 minutes' is usually the answer. For this sort of thing 15 x 1min is a much better idea.

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