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Cheers for the explanation regarding scales.

 

Do you have any plans to try to implement a basic scale with timer? I ask because scales with 0.1g accuracy are available for dirt cheap and in abundance, but if you want a scale with a timer function you are immediately talking 10x the price.

 

I guess the segment of the market that wants this combination is fairly small so somewhat difficult to drive down the price on such a product. But personally I have very little interest in the new Brewista (after the V1 proved to have worse longevity than a £5 ebay jobby) especially as it's new price, and the only functions I ever used on the V1 were the scale and timer.

 

I very much liked having the single unit of scale and timer with the Brewista V1, but ultimately any new scale is competing as a value proposition against a ebay scale+separate timer, and this makes a £100 scale seem like an absurd luxury.

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Do you have any plans to try to implement a basic scale with timer? I ask because scales with 0.1g accuracy are available for dirt cheap and in abundance, but if you want a scale with a timer function you are immediately talking 10x the price. I very much liked having the single unit of scale and timer with the Brewista V1, but ultimately any new scale is competing as a value proposition against a ebay scale+separate timer, and this makes a £100 scale seem like an absurd luxury.

The Decent Scale we made works as a nice basic 0.1g accurate scale with timer, without your using the bluetooth features.

 

But to answer your question directly: I'm not interested in making a low quality, very low cost scale that competes with no-name stuff that you can buy on ebay.

 

I've bought those scales before and I would rather spend more to get a scale that doesn't frustrate me. If you're perfectly happy with a (say) £10 scale, there's no profitability in that sector to motivate us to spend R&D money to make something that competes. My hope is that after going through a half dozen of those (as I have) you'll be willing to buy more for higher quality. If not, that's fine, that's why those cheap scales exist on eBay.

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The Decent Scale we made works as a nice basic 0.1g accurate scale with timer, without your using the bluetooth features.

 

But to answer your question directly: I'm not interested in making a low quality, very low cost scale that competes with no-name stuff that you can buy on ebay.

 

I've bought those scales before and I would rather spend more to get a scale that doesn't frustrate me. If you're perfectly happy with a (say) £10 scale, there's no profitability in that sector to motivate us to spend R&D money to make something that competes. My hope is that after going through a half dozen of those (as I have) you'll be willing to buy more for higher quality. If not, that's fine, that's why those cheap scales exist on eBay.

 

I don't think I would expect you to compete in the £10 scale market, I dont think it would be behoove anyone to try and compete with the mass produced chinese goods without some specific value add.

 

What I mean is, for a scale that serves two basic functions - weight and time -

£100 is too much - your decent scale is £80, plus £10 shipping all before taxes and import duty. ('too much' is obviously my opinion here, but one I think is shared to some extent)

You can serve the above function with £10-20 on ebay and two items, but as you say not great quality.

 

However what is missing for me is a good middle of the market option. This was seemingly served by Brewista when they released their V1 scale, and for the £40 it cost me at the time I was very happy with it. However it then turned out to have many problems reported on the forum, and mine also just stopped working... a problem I had never had with any £10 ebay scales.

 

What would be perfect for me at least is a 'middle of the market' scale that was able to serve just those two functions, no bells and whistles.

 

It might just be me, but I think the Brewistas were popular when they came out for this very reason, that they seems like a quality scale, perhaps a bit more than you would normally spend but worth it if you didn't have to buy another scale again for a while and did everything you needed out of them. The V2 scales, as far as I can tell have virtually no users on these forums because they are more expensive and now have a bad rap.

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the Brewistas were popular when they came out for this very reason, that they seems like a quality scale, perhaps a bit more than you would normally spend but worth it if you didn't have to buy another scale again for a while and did everything you needed out of them. The V2 scales, as far as I can tell have virtually no users on these forums because they are more expensive and now have a bad rap.

 

Agreed. My V1 scales have worked perfectly and well worth £40, but not a chance I'd spend the amount they're after for V2. I'd consider myself in the category of people who spend more money than sensible on some things if I'm interested, but I've never been tempted to spend £100+ on a scale with a timer.

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The market for acaia scales would suggest that there is a place for £100 scales ....


I write a blog, it's nothing to do with coffee ...

https://rjwinc.wordpress.com

Instagram - rjw_inc

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The market for acaia scales would suggest that there is a place for £100 scales ....

 

I am in no way trying to suggest that there isn't, Decent are likely to sell a fair few scales to this exact market.

 

I am just saying that I personally am not in that market, my comments on brewista scales being too expensive are when considering the market that bought their V1 scales.

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The market for acaia scales would suggest that there is a place for £100 scales ....

 

alternately, there are lots of idiots about

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Just read through the entire thread over the last couple of days, fascinating to see the product develop and please, keep posting the thought process.

 

I'm a coffee newbie, but as a developer, I love the idea of having a ton more information about what is happening during the process, have you got any ideas about how to remove the guesswork from grinding? It seems to be a large area of uncertainty/inconsistency

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I'm a coffee newbie, but as a developer, I love the idea of having a ton more information about what is happening during the process, have you got any ideas about how to remove the guesswork from grinding? It seems to be a large area of uncertainty/inconsistency

Grinding and dosing remain difficult for people, and for me the key is measurement and repeatability.

 

I have a few parts of the puzzle done, such as a spring-calibrated tamper, matching baskets, a tamping cradle, and I'm finalising a grind-by-weight product.

 

We've also started R&D on a grounds distribution tool, but I want to be honest about this: nobody has figured this out yet, though many people have tried, so there's no guarantee that we'll crack it either. I've got a friendly "coopetion" thing going with Matt Perger, and he tells me he's go something going that is sometimes making 2x better shots, but not consistently (yet). He's got the smarts to crack this problem, and he might beat us to it.

 

Getting the same dose, at a similar grind, evenly distributed & tamped, is a prerequisite to getting the grind fineness right. A bottomless portafilter is also important, to tangibly verify that you did a good prep job.

 

On the DE1+ you can see the flow rate, puck compression, and channeling (both as fast pressure drops and also flow rate increases) during an espresso shot. That will tell you a lot about your puck prep and grind (and the quality of your grinder).

 

To answer your question about grinding:

 

If your grind is just too coarse, On the DE1+ you'll see this as (a) the puck not compressing [and thus the flow rate not slowing down] or (b) the puck compressing but the flow rate still being too fast and © too short a shot time. You can then adjust your grind accordingly.

 

In R&D, we're working on a modification kit for existing grinders, to add grind-by-weight, as well as bluetooth control of a grinder. We're starting with the Hey Cafe 64mm burr grinders, because they're very good value for a ~Robur grade grind quality, and once we finalise the mods, we'll ship those grinders already modified.

 

*IF* it makes business sense and we get the tech working right, and if Mazzer lets us be a reseller, there's also the possibility of our selling modded Roburs (and other Mazzers) with grind by weight and bluetooth control added to them. They'll have their own app, so you can use them with any setup, but they'll also be remote controllable by the DE1+ software. We're starting with Hey Cafe grinders first.

Edited by decent_espresso

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The final forms for our drip tray and water tank have been made. A robotic CNC machine milled these out of solid blocks of aluminum!

 

miykds.jpg

 

In case you haven't been following every single progress report I sent, these were needed because we recently discovered that none of the ceramics factories can read 3D CAD files, but they were embarrassed to say so. They've been approximating by reading our 2D drawings, and getting things only somewhat right. The ceramics factories asked us to give them exactly what we wanted them to make, and they'd figure out how to do that (hopefully, taking clay shrinkage into account!).

 

We've made two sets because we've got two final contenders in terms of ceramics factories to order from. These water tanks cost USD $750 each to make, so I really hope this "cracks the code" and we finally get something we're happy to use.

 

Also received today:

 

  1. in the bottom left, you can see our first attempt at a home-made "flush diffuser" so that you don't get splashed when the pressure is released.
  2. in the center bottom, is our first attempt at a "blade" that will fit into our portafilter funnel, to turn the funnel into a rotating grounds diffusion tool.

Below is a photo of two espresso machine legs, which are also going to the ceramics vendors, so they can make sure the water tank and drip tray they make fit well into it.

 

These legs are a new design for us, in that they're now made out of one piece of bent aluminum. For the past two years we've made the legs from two parts that we bolted together, but we were concerned that after several years the legs would eventually sag in the middle, so we've switched to this much stronger (but harder to pull off) design.



lgsaz.jpg

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We've now reintegrated the changed mirror angle, shape and length from Joao's study, into our CAD model.

 

Joao version side plate - Side view.jpg

 

Happily, this also gives us more space to mount the flush tube in, and still have it be out of sight.

 

We still need to figure out how the usb cable is going to come out the front panel and connect discreetly to the tablet to keep it charged. I don't really want to cut a notch out like this, as it's not a very elegant solution:

 

usb-front.jpg

 

much better would be something like this, that we're trying to source this week:

 

usb.jpg

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We've now reintegrated the changed mirror angle, shape and length from Joao's study, into our CAD model.

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]26068[/ATTACH]

 

Happily, this also gives us more space to mount the flush tube in, and still have it be out of sight.

 

We still need to figure out how the usb cable is going to come out the front panel and connect discreetly to the tablet to keep it charged. I don't really want to cut a notch out like this, as it's not a very elegant solution:

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]26067[/ATTACH]

 

much better would be something like this, that we're trying to source this week:

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]26066[/ATTACH]

 

 

As far as the charging thing goes, you can get chargers now that don't need to plug in. I've seen iPhone cases from IKEA that you just sit on top of a charging mat. This could all be built into the cradle.


Input: 'Terranovered’ Versalab M3  + Niche

Output: Slayer One Group + La Pavoni + V60 + AeroPress + Syphon + Bialetti Induction Moka Pot + Bialetti Mucka Express + jar of instant for visitors..

 

 

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We've now reintegrated the changed mirror angle, shape and length from Joao's study, into our CAD model.

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]26068[/ATTACH]

 

Happily, this also gives us more space to mount the flush tube in, and still have it be out of sight.

 

We still need to figure out how the usb cable is going to come out the front panel and connect discreetly to the tablet to keep it charged. I don't really want to cut a notch out like this, as it's not a very elegant solution:

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]26067[/ATTACH]

 

much better would be something like this, that we're trying to source this week:

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]26066[/ATTACH]

 

 

As far as the charging thing goes, you can get chargers now that don't need to plug in. I've seen iPhone cases from IKEA that you just sit on top of a charging mat. This could all be built into the cradle.


Input: 'Terranovered’ Versalab M3  + Niche

Output: Slayer One Group + La Pavoni + V60 + AeroPress + Syphon + Bialetti Induction Moka Pot + Bialetti Mucka Express + jar of instant for visitors..

 

 

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As far as the charging thing goes, you can get chargers now that don't need to plug in. I've seen iPhone cases from IKEA that you just sit on top of a charging mat. This could all be built into the cradle.

In order to pull that off, we'd need to make a custom case around our tablet, going into its USB micro charger plug, and then have hardware behind the case for wireless charging. Besides the R&D, and the extra cost in parts, this would mean that our form factor cannot change over time, you must use our tablet only and you cannot use just any Android tablet you buy on the open market. I much prefer to stay generic.

 

Once wireless charging is widespread, and the hardware is built into tablets, we'll certainly go this route. My aim for now is "keep it simple" with an old fashioned usb-micro charger cable, which works on just about every Android tablet out there.

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No love for iPhone users?

Our espresso machines come with a tablet included, and it's Android and it "just works".

 

At our launch time, I didn't think that taking your phone out, turning it on, launching an app, connecting via bluetooth, was really a great way to go about making an espresso. That's more likely to frustrate people.

 

I have plans for porting our tablet app to iPad, but that'll have to wait for next year.

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Ben Champion suggested we change the group head design to make experimentation easier, which we've now done. Ben and Ray are now trying several different group head diffuser ideas, some based on calibrated orifices, some on turbulence:

 

preview-full-pasted-file-2.jpg

 

All of these are performing well under simulation, and all are much better than the single-hole approach we had (and that you find in other espresso machines). However, it's unlikely that we'll decide which one is the "bee's knees" of diffusers in the next few weeks. We'll likely choose one of the calibrated approaches, because it's known to work well (turbulence is very hard to understand and model).

 

We'll keep banging away on these ideas in the months to come, and I'm hoping that once the DE1 is out, other people will join in with their own ideas, and have them CNCed (local CNC cost is about $150 for this part) to see if they work better. With lots of people banging on the problem of even water flow (at low velocity) under varied conditions, I'm hoping that a winning approach will emerge (or maybe several). We'll be posting the CAD files for our own ideas, in case you want to start with that and modify it.

 

Here's what some of the simulations look like. We're trying to have even water flow, but also quite low velocity, to minimise "drilling into" the coffee puck, at varied pressures and flow rates.

 

Our next set of simulations, which Ben has started to work on, involve simulating the puck's absorption of water. We're hoping to gain a better understanding of what happens during preinfusion through this work.

 

preview-full-pasted-file-10.jpg

preview-full-pasted-file-4-1.jpg

preview-full-pasted-file-3.jpg

preview-full-pasted-file-9.jpg

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Our espresso machines come with a tablet included, and it's Android and it "just works".

 

At our launch time, I didn't think that taking your phone out, turning it on, launching an app, connecting via bluetooth, was really a great way to go about making an espresso. That's more likely to frustrate people.

 

I have plans for porting our tablet app to iPad, but that'll have to wait for next year.

 

I absolutely admire the efforts put into this machine, as well as the tech and all the innovative design of parts, like, ceramic boilers, water mixing etc.

 

For me, I wouldn't mind having the machine design in a way that the [Android] tablet/phone is an accessory, allowing customers to buy their own or one offered as part of the machine package. I, for instance, would have no issues taking my phone out of my pocket connected and pre-paired via Bluetooth or optionally connect via USB, turn the machine on, and 10 minutes later hit the "Espresso" button. In the same way, my wife could do the same with her phone, or we could just use our "family" tablet to control the machine. I understand that connecting via bluetooth in that way could be interesting if all the devices are in range. So maybe a "priority" list would be ideal.

 

I am also very aware that the release/development/connectivity of the Android platform is far better than the somewhat restrictive iOS, so it's only natural to first release on Android and then move on to iOS.

 

Anyway, @decent_espresso, fantastic job, a big "well done" and congratulations from me. Amazing product.

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In the past 48 hours, 23 people have volunteered to translate the DE1 tablet software, and we now have added Swedish, Hungarian, Thai, and Danish to the list of supported languages (in addition to Japanese, Korean, Chinese, Spanish, Italian, Portuguese and German).

 

There are about 40 artistic tablet styles that will be available on the DE1. Instead of doing real work, this past summer I worked with 40 different artists, from all around the world, to create these. The translations are automatically used on all of them. Below you can see some examples of this, in Korean, Japanese and Swedish.

screen 2017-04-15 at 4.31.07 PM.jpg

screen 2017-04-15 at 4.51.46 PM.jpg

 

screen 2017-04-15 at 4.54.00 PM.jpg

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Amazing software and demo! Well done! May I suggest a future enhancement/feature? Towards the end you show the option that the machine can turn on/off at specific times. Is there any plans to do that using a weekly scheduler? For example - and I know the DE1 does not take nowhere as long as an e61 machine to heat up - I have my machine set to turn on at different times during the week to suit my working schedule/pattern and at a later time during the weekend.

 

Great work!

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Amazing software and demo! Well done! May I suggest a future enhancement/feature? Towards the end you show the option that the machine can turn on/off at specific times. Is there any plans to do that using a weekly scheduler? For example - and I know the DE1 does not take nowhere as long as an e61 machine to heat up - I have my machine set to turn on at different times during the week to suit my working schedule/pattern and at a later time during the weekend. Great work!

Yep, I've sketched out my idea for this, and plan to implement it as a free software upgrade in the future. You're not the only one who has asked for it!

 

scheduler.jpg

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