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What do you see if any in the potential price differences from USA to UK ? Will the machines be the " same "

Can we have a clip to see how the profile is set , or displayed as it progresses ....

from a couple of weeks ago

I do unfortunately need to be clear that the 220V version will be more expensive than the USA 110V version (currently looking at £999). The reason is that we're putting much beefier heaters and pumps into that model, because we *can*. That means more powerful steam, because at 110V physics is not really on your side, whereas at 220V there's enough juice to make decent on demand steam. Also, faster startup time on 220V.

Just a note that this is not an anti-Brit bias: the UK/EU machine will be just plain better. I'm Britain-born and lived in London for years before launching into this little adventure.


Everything my heart could desire (more or less). . .

 

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That looks neat! Will be looking forward to the release.

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Is there anything you see in this video that you would comment on?

 

Hard to tell how it tastes from the video the mockups and the site look good - the option for analogue controls will inspire confidence.

 

So for function: how much control over pressure do you have ( how many zones, how is that control achieved etc)

 

Juice: What thermoblock or coils for brew & steam have you gone with for uk models?

 

I think the next couple of years will see more than a couple of similarly intentioned machines, if you can get a well constructed machine to market in the next 12 weeks, the world is your oyster!


esto tambien pasara.

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how much control over pressure do you have ( how many zones, how is that control achieved etc)

 

You draw a pressure profile with your finger. Inside the machine, there are 4 zones per second, if you want to think of it in terms of zones (which I know is how other espresso machine do).

 

Control over the pressure is achieved by detecting the zero crossing of the AC current going into the pump and removing some of the pump cycles that way, thereby slowing down the pump.

 

Juice: What thermoblock or coils for brew & steam have you gone with for uk models?

 

We're using a coiled tube heater for brew, and another for steam, and both are custom made for us (and different). I can't tell you what heater specs we've decided for 220/240V as we haven't yet decided (that's the "tuning stage" we're in now). It'll likely be "as powerful as EC safety compliance lets us have".

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Can we have a clip to see how the profile is set , or displayed as it progresses ....Cheers

 

I can't yet show you how the profile is set, as the tablet software is not yet done.

 

I can show you the UI designer's mockup, with the huge caveat that the text is "total nonsense" inserted there by the UI designer as a placeholder for "real text".

 

You can see that we'll be charting the goal pressure profile (that's the line), the real pressure achieved, temperature achieved and water flow rate. All given in real time.

 

decent_ui_espresso_artists_mockup.jpg

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A good bit of further information has come up on home barista, would @decent_espresso care to share it here too?


Londinium R, Hg-one, button tamper, vst,ims,V60,siphon,aeropress...and still no idea

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A good bit of further information has come up on home barista, would @decent_espresso care to share it here too?

DE1 and DE1PRO and La Marzocco GS/3.

-----

I wrote an extensive response on Home-Barista.com (http://www.home-barista.com/espresso-machines/decent-espresso-promises-rock-solid-temperature-and-pressure-for-less-than-1000-t37395-380.html) to a set of really good questions, I'm guessing that's what you're referring to.

 

I'll repost that here, and I'm happy to take the conversation up here as well.

-----

"Do you have an expected release date for the V2 paddle and the Pro version; or will those be the same machine?"

The paddle feature is a projected future accessory, but I don't know when it will ship, as it is currently being worked on as a lower priority and it's not on our release calendar yet.

Currently, we're projecting an August 2016 ship date for two models, a DE1 ($999) and a DE1PRO ($3999).

The DE1 has:

* excellent temperature accuracy (worst case of +/- 1.0C)

* pressure profiling: choose one of 12 pre-set profiles

* charts that show you temperature, flow and pressure in real time, and also point out technique problems that caused a bad coffee

* a simple "tap the icon to make this" interface

* water temp settable between 80C and 99C

* precise control over the temperature of the hot water tap

* control over the steam temperature

* very high quality portafilter basket (equivalent to VST quality)

* 110V/220V

The DE1PRO adds:

- laboratory level temperature accuracy (no worse than +/- 0.3C, better still to be determined)

- calibration equipment (and steps) are provided so that you can regularly recalibrate your machine to achieve consistently accurate results

- make your own pressure profile

- temperature profiling

- flow profiling

- automatic detection of the end of pre-infusion

- flow vs pressure priority modes

- volumetric dosing

- water temp settable between 20C and 99C

- real time temperature, flow and pressure control, with on-screen sliders

- recording and playback of shots

- later: cloud storage, reviewing and export of all shots

- later: optional taste analysis storing (using the Counter Culture system)

---

 

"Have you compared DE1 and your GS3 head to head in the cup?"

I do love my GS/3 and I'm friends with Bill Crossland, so I'll try to be as fair as I can be!

For a straight 9-bar shot, if my puck preparation technique is perfect on the GS/3, I find that both the DE1 and GS/3 taste almost identical.

I use a 5 second preinfusion setting on my GS/3, as I find that helps me avoid channeling and I get a more even extraction (I use a bottomless portafilter).

If my puck preparation is not perfect, the 9 bar on/off nature of the GS/3 tends to be merciless, and my less-than perfect technique results in a mediocre shot. I am by no means an Barista God, I've never worked in a café, and the number of shots I've made number in the thousands, not 10x or 100x that, which a professional barista would have done.

I find that the slower pressure ramp up of the DE1 (inspired by Nuova Simonelli's "Soft Infusion System") is more forgiving of imperfect technique, and so I'm drinking excellent shots more often with the DE1.

Both the GS3 and the DE1 have excellent baskets, similar portafilters, and accurate water temperature. I wouldn't expect them to be very different tasting.

The GS3 has amazing steam production, and it took me a while to decide on a steam temperature setting that I could control (about 20s to steam milk). Our DE1 in the lab is currently at about 50s to do the same quantity of milk, but we expect to get to 40s. I don't think we'll achieve the GS3's steam capability.

I have never been able to make the "tea" water-temperature-knob work right on my GS/3, and this has always frustrated me as I make a lot of Americanos. With the DE1's ability to set the "tea" water temperature acurately, my Americanos are the right temperature.

---

 

"As you have improved technology are you seeing new dimensions to espresso or new challenges compared with the traditional machines?"

In Seattle, I was able to spend an afternoon with Dennis, the brain behindhttps://instagram.com/kafatek/ and we taste compared his Slayer and Synesso machines. They have very different taste profiles, and I was intrigued by Slayer's very long infusion technique. We were making shots with this same profile last week on the DE1, with a 2cc flow rate during preinfusion, lasting about 40 seconds, and the DE1 would go into a 8.4bar-to-4bar pressure profile when it automatically detected that the puck was fully saturated (I don't think Slayer can do this). The flavor we achieved here was more pour-over like, and definitely reminiscent of the Slayer. Dennis told me he prefers the Slayer for his light roasts.

With my GS/3, I play with brew temperature every time I change roasts. It's a bit slow to change temperature, but it does work. With the DE1, I like that I can change the brew temperature and immediately pull another shot to compare each side-by-side.

The same goes with pressure changes: I can pull two shots, one after another (there's no delay between shots with our espresso machine, but we did have delays in earlier incarnations), and then compare them.

---

 

"Have you noticed with the DE1 that you can do things you could not do on other machines? For example, I believe your temperature and pressure profiling capability is likely changing your approach to beans and grind settings etc. If so can you share some of your observations?"

At this point, we don't have a real user interface to our espresso machine (I'm programming it), it's all driven by Ray's laptop, so we haven't been doing so much experimentation yet. Last week, we tried a Slayer profile, this week, we're onto Rao's profile and next week I want to try a bit of temperature profiling.

I hope that our flow profiling feature will yield interesting results, as it's my opinion that people using pressure profiling are actually trying to regulate flow, so why not simply set a flow profile and let the machine choose the pressure that achieves that?

This is the first post I've made describing the DE1PRO. We previously were holding back on these features because they seemed too "edgy" for a home audience, and more "coffee experimenter". My experience is that the DE1 will deliver shots at least equivalent in quality to the GS/3, whereas the DE1PRO is aimed at a much smaller, tinkerer market. The higher price lets us go "whole hog" and put everything we've developed into one model.

Incidentally, today Ray showed me his temperature profiling today, and I made a movie from our conversation:

Edited by decent_espresso

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A good bit of further information has come up on home barista, would @decent_espresso care to share it here too?

 

and possibly this is of interest too...

 

"John, do you have local retailer/distributors in your supply chain or are you selling direct through the website?"

 

We are only selling direct. As many people predicted, the DE1 is a lot more expensive to make than the competition (about 3x more) and there is no margin in our business plan to give 40% commissions to middlemen."

Like the rest of the HBers, I too am very concerned about service and support, which is another reason I want to sell direct. If you have any problems, I want you to have a direct line with us, so we can fix the problem. My experience is that middlemen like to make margin from moving boxes, but usually get in the way when there's a problem.

 

Luckily, shipping things back to Hong Kong is almost free (USD$200 to fill a container from Los Angeles to HK), so our plan is if your machine breaks, you send it to our depot in your country, and we send you a new machine from HK. We'll eventually ship those broken machines slowly back to us, repair them and sell them at a discount as refurbished units.

 

---

 

"How soon can we see pricing which includes delivery (and conversion for us outside of the US :| )?"

 

I've just signed a contract with our fulfilment house (that's a company that does shipping and customs clearance). As to shipping, you're looking at somewhere between USD$100 and USD$250 to ship our machine to you, depending on how fast you want it (15 to 20 days for the cheaper, 3-5 days for the expensive option).

 

For 220V/240V countries, the price is expected to be about 30% higher for the DE1, because we're putting heavier duty components into it. Some countries, like the EU, also have import duties that need to be accounted for.

 

---

 

"Can you post the pressure profiles you will have on the stock DE1, or are you still finalizing them?"

We haven't decided on them at all, and I'm happy to discuss what we should have, on HB. I was thinking of having plenty of flat-pressure profiles, say at 4bar, 6bar, 8.2bar, 8.4bar, 9.0bar, 9.2bar, as well as profiles that imitate the stock profiles of Nuova Simonelli, Slayer and Synesso.

 

I run a private discussion group with 23 competition baristas, which includes two world champions, and I expect that some of our profiles will emerge from them.

 

We won't have it at shipping time, but my intention is for people with the DE1PRO to be able to make their own profiles, save and share them via our cloud service, and for people with the DE1 to then be able to download those profiles and use them. I wasn't foreseeing artificially limiting the number of profiles on the DE1 to some arbitrary number. At launch there'll be some set number, but as we push out software updates, this will number will increase until sharing is possible.

 

---

 

"Several people have commented that you wont draw GS3/Slayer/Synesso crowds with your $1K machine. I and others made a point that quality and performance certainly might and should. This price point for the Pro model does not surprise me if one looks at the price of a Vesuvius, gs3, slayer etc."

My GS/3 cost me €7000, while a Slayer one group machine is USD$8500 (https://prima-coffee.com/equipment/slayer/single-group).

 

The DE1PRO is less than half the price of those machines, and except for our lower steam production than a traditional boiler machine, I believe it matches all their capabilities and has a half dozen other capabilities that they don't have. If you buy our 220V machine, I think we'll be close to matching their steam production too.

 

---

 

"Many people on HB purchase commercial machines and I would even state that we are more likely to be tinkerers compared with a commercial setting where a barista would not have time to make multiple changes and play with different functions or change beans frequently enough to try out different profiles. I presumed your target audience was the home barista actually."

 

You're right, that's my background, and that is the target audience. However, nobody would win if we tried to sell the DE1PRO at $999 and subsequently went out of business. It's just too expensive a machine to build (and to have developed: R&D is not cheap) to sell at a BDB price.

 

---

 

"As you continue to pile on the features I'm probably going to turn my concern to long term reliability/repairability. Until you came along the BDB was similarly positioned - an extremely capable machine at an unbelievable price. Since then many BDB's have died - but luckily for consumers Breville has gone above and beyond their warranty obligations and kept customers happy. I'm sure you're confident that these are going to hold up, but when suddenly thousands of machines are out in the wild getting used and abused who knows what's going to happen. I'm definitely optimistic, but $4000 is asking a lot of trust from a young company."

 

Of course we're going to do our best to make our machines hold up. The 3 of us engineers here are in our 40s, and have shipped a lot of new products, so we do have long term experience with this. I previously built and ran a company that grew to 50 employees, thousands of customers, and which ran the email newsletters for 3 US presidential election campaigns: this would have been unlikely to happen with bad customer service.

 

As a new company, I expect that no matter how great our machine, if it fails in the field and we don't deliver a good service experience, that we won't succeed as a company.

 

I answered, at the top of this message, how we're planning on supporting our machines. We'll also be selling all parts to anyone who wants to buy them, not just to technicians, in case you want to stockpile parts as a hedge against our longevity. :D

 

---

 

"I wonder, will the $4k DE1 pro have multiple thermoblocks to allow for simultaneous brewing/steaming? If not, it's comparing apples to oranges."

Yes, both the DE1 and the DE1PRO have two water heaters, one for brew and one for steam. Both heaters are used for steam production, but the steam heater is a custom design to prevent "wet steam" from coming out the wand.

 

---

 

"Agreed; I was just making a point about high end features and price point. The Vesuvius with pressure profiling would probably be the closest comparison. However, the difference in technology with the DE1 is inherently an apples to oranges comparison with any current machine. I would assume that the Pro model would need a sexy exterior and be capable of simultaneous brew/steam to be competitive at that price point; unless, of course the target audience really is just going to be research/lab."

 

Simultaneous Brew/Steam for us, is simply a matter of electrical juice available. At 220V/240V, we can absolutely do it, and we probably (not sure yet) can do it at 20A/110V. Not at 110V/15A, though.

 

Water heating once the shot is at full pressure takes much less electricity (because of the lower water flow), so we're also exploring the possibility of simultaneous brew/steam at about 10 seconds into the shot. That's nearly instantaneous, and might satisfy many people's needs for steaming milk while the shot finishes. This is still to be researched.

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@decent_espresso Can I ask, on the DE1, with the built in pressure profiles, and apparent ability to download other ones, why restrict the user from being able to make their own profiles? I think as a user I would be very fraustrated that it's essentially 'locked off' by the software. If you're allowing cloud downloading of profiles, and I had a mate with a PRO, I could just get him to make the profile and upload it so I could download and use it? Makes a bit of a mockery of it all?

 

There is still plenty extra to justify the price tag on the PRO.


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@decent_espresso i'm the guy who suggested adding a spring-loaded lever style profile which by the way some people on here have done on their Vesuviuses so they should be able to pitch in. @Mrboots2u springs to mind..

 

As for the PRO I really think you should focus on making it more capable in terms of hardware rather than software features. I read about the physics modeling and that's pretty cool but you really need to make the $3,000 on top of the DE1 worth it if you want people to buy it. Alternatively you could narrow the price differential.. I'm pretty sure there will be very few people who are willing to spend 3x the amount of the DE1 on top to just get flow profiling, realtime flow/pressure/temp adjustments and higher pump pressure.

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@decent_espresso Can I ask, on the DE1, with the built in pressure profiles, and apparent ability to download other ones, why restrict the user from being able to make their own profiles? I think as a user I would be very fraustrated that it's essentially 'locked off' by the software. If you're allowing cloud downloading of profiles, and I had a mate with a PRO, I could just get him to make the profile and upload it so I could download and use it? Makes a bit of a mockery of it all? There is still plenty extra to justify the price tag on the PRO.

 

To my ears, the argument being put forward appears to be "you should give everyone the most advanced software you have developed, at no extra cost, in your $999 version, because it's just bits and bytes and has no manufacturing cost".

 

The DE1PRO software is much, more more extensive than the DE1 software. In the UI, there are pages not just for editing pressure, but flow profiling, creating temperature profiles, and more. In the firmware, there is about 3x more code written for the pro stuff than for the home.

 

At some point we have to decide what goes into the pro software and what goes into the home software. Generally speaking, for a $999 machine we're looking to make a machine competitive with the GS/3: easy to use, for people who just want to make La Marzocco grade espresso, at home, and so we don't complicate the use of that machine with things that would to appeal to tinkerers. It's an excellent coffee making machine, period. For tinkerers, we offer a more expensive, more capable, but also more complicated-to-use DE1PRO model.

 

I know there's reticence to pay for software, and that it's more "fair" to pay for hardware. But, if we've figured out how to do really neat things with software, that would otherwise have required hardware 10x more expensive, can we not meet half way, and recoup some of our investment while still offering a much-lower-priced-than-the-competition machine?

 

Should we not do innovation in software, and stick only to innovating in hardware, because people aren't willing to pay for software-based innovations?

 

I know that the $3999 price tag is high, but our nearest competitors (the GS/3 and the Slayer single group) are 2x as expensive, and offer much less (no temp/flow/pressure profiling).

 

My goal in making a PRO version at a $3999 price was to hugely lower the price of these features, which are currently only available in a very few, very expensive professional espresso machines.

 

At the end of the day, it seems to me that what should matter in people's decision is whether the features offered at a given price have that value to them, not whether they were implemented in software or hardware.

 

-john

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@decent_espresso I actually didn't express myself very well. What I meant is do these $3,000 on top make for a better espresso in the cup or are they just cool features to play with? As you said it doesn't matter if they are software or hardware implemented if they do the same thing. With coffee equipment we are used to the hardware making all the difference so maybe that's why people are finding it hard to accept that the software can demand such a premium.

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What I meant is do these make for a better espresso in the cup or are they just cool features to play with?

I think the answer is "we don't know for sure yet", but let me go through each feature and say a bit about it.

 

pressure profiling: the number of people doing temperature or flow profiling, with blind taste tests, is very few. Some world barista champions are very pro pressure profiling, so that technology seems to make a better cup.

 

temperature profiling: one of Scott Rao's books (I forget which, sorry!) has a table of suggested slight over-temperatures to compensate for the cooling effect of the grounds, based on the dose size. Scott is actually the codesigner of our espresso machine, and certainly our authority of everything that is serious coffee knowledge (Scott is wwwwwwaaaayyy beyond my knowledge). Scott has a theory, in discussion with me, that temperature profiling should lead to a better in cup result, because more of the extraction should take place closer to the water set point, by using temperature profiling to compensate for the cooling effect of the grounds. This "problem" with espresso is why Scott prefers pour over, where the entire extraction takes place closer to the water set point.

 

flow profiling: there are a handful of hand-modified machines out there using this technology, I don't know any machine shipping with it. In theory, it should do what pressure profiling aims to do, but to do it better, so I expect the in cup result to be better too.

 

automatic detection of the end of preinfusion: will result in a better cup than timed preinfusion, which is what other machines do. We're also managing Slayer-like slow preinfusion (2 ml/second, for ~40 seconds) with automatic detection of the end of that cycle leading into a pressure profile. That's giving us a really different espresso taste profile, more like drip coffee.

 

15 bar extractions: unknown, but Nespresso claims their machines extract at 15 bars, and according to James Hoffman they're getting very high extractions, so this is an interesting avenue to explore

 

Recording and playback of shots: if you have a really good shot, the DE1PRO can repeat the flow/pressure/temperature profile of it. That should lead to more consistently good shots.

 

We're also working on manufacturing our own bluetooth scale, and if we can get it ready in time, then these two features will be added to the DE1PRO. If the scale comes late, then people who purchased the DE1PRO will get our scale and software upgrade for free.

 

Gravimetric dosing: the Black Eagle famously touts this feature, as I'm pretty sure this will be part of the DE1PRO too. It depends on whether we can get our bluetooth scale launched at the same time as the DE1PRO.

 

Profile imitation: bluetooth scale allows copying of flow/pressure profiles of other espresso machines (such as lever machines)

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15 bar extractions: unknown, but Nespresso claims their machines extract at 15 bars, and according to James Hoffman they're getting very high extractions, so this is an interesting avenue to explore.

 

Isn't that more a function of their longer brew ratios & grind distribution than blind bar pressure?


“Coffee evokes the most insane reactions in people”, Rene Redzepi.

 

https://markwjburness.wordpress.com/

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Isn't that more a function of their longer brew ratios & grind distribution than blind bar pressure?

I don't know, the only article I've found analyzing Nespresso is this one: http://www.jimseven.com/2015/05/21/an-analysis-of-nespresso-part-i/

 

If you have some links of others analyzing what's going on inside a Nespresso machine, I would love to read those!

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We're still finalizing the stream heater control algorithm, but it looks like we're able to deliver much better steam power than I had predicted. I had previously said we'd be ~40 to ~50 seconds to steam 200ml of milk. Today, I accomplished this in 34 seconds. This was on our 110V machine.

 

 

You can also see how the single hole steam wand tip is performing. I'm finding it fairly easy to control and it's making good quality foam.

 

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I don't know, the only article I've found analyzing Nespresso is this one: http://www.jimseven.com/2015/05/21/an-analysis-of-nespresso-part-i/

 

If you have some links of others analyzing what's going on inside a Nespresso machine, I would love to read those!

 

I have also measured EY of a few Nespresso shots, not with the same amount of detail that James Hoffmann did. But notice that in his sieve tests of a Lungo capsule 80% of the ground weight was over 500um, filter coffee territory? The lungo I measured was 6.4g dose into 110g of beverage, or a 17:1 ratio in the cup (would equate to 19:1 as a drip ratio, so a bit lower than typical).

 

The pods I weighed were in the region of 5.1g dose to 6.4g dose, so even for a Nespresso 'ristretto' shot that's ~4:1 ratio, 6 or 7:1 ratio for Nespresso 'espresso'.

 

So it strikes me that the high yields are related more to the long brew ratios employed, the fact they still taste good into the mid 20's (I measured a lungo at 29%EY and it was bitter as you'd expect) probably more a function of the grind distribution (I have had sweet tasting mid 20's extractions from commercially ground coffee too).


“Coffee evokes the most insane reactions in people”, Rene Redzepi.

 

https://markwjburness.wordpress.com/

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flow profiling: there are a handful of hand-modified machines out there using this technology, I don't know any machine shipping with it. In theory, it should do what pressure profiling aims to do, but to do it better, so I expect the in cup result to be better too.
@DavecUK didn't you say that apart from the Vesuvius, all other machines that claim to pressure profile are, in fact, flow profiling?

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@DavecUK didn't you say that apart from the Vesuvius, all other machines that claim to pressure profile are, in fact, flow profiling?

 

With the exception of the La marzoco Strada EP (but this is at the moment only a 2 group commercial) for prosumer machines, this does still seem to be the case. If you have a standard Vibe pump or a standard Rotary pump, then your flow profiling, because you use valves, bypasses and restriction, rather than truly varying pump pressure. The ideal would be to have both pressure and on the fly flow profiling of course...

 

Always lots of people ready to expound myths on the internet, like those about the El Roccio Zarre machine, but in hard testing, it failed to deliver against the myths.


 My reviews at http://coffeestuff.byethost12.com/ (now ad free)  Various Machines and grinders, Amazon Dalian 1kg Drum Roaster: My reviews at https://coffeeequipmentreviews.wordpress.com/ (old site)

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Interesting, I might see if Andrew Meo from Rocket would like to respond to this, he's quite into his engineering.


Rocket R60V, Rocket Fausto Grinder, Acaia Lunar Scales, VST 18g Basket, Bottomless portafilter, OCD distributor, Torr 58.55

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A few people private-messaged me, asking to see the quality of the milk foam made on the DE1, so I made this very short movie. This was 200ml of whole milk, lifted to about 275ml of volume, in about 35 seconds.

 

[video=youtube_share;OarzYetC0oM]

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We have the bluetooth module working now, and I've written a not-yet-finished version of the tablet UI (no "settings" section yet, no shot-progress info, but otherwise working), and so we were today able to make unassisted coffee drinks. This also demonstrates our accurate-temperature "hot water" feature, making a 60°C Americano. This is a major milestone for us.

 

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What's the purpose of that portafilter-like handle/thing? There is something very unnatural about how it looks.

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It's going to be moving to the other side of the group head, in about 2 weeks (new group head design coming). The 2nd handle is there because our machine not heavy like a boiler based machine, and so we found it helpful to put a hand on something (with your other hand) as you lock in the portafilter.

 

Note that if you don't like the idea of that 2nd handle, it's simply screwed in and you can remove it. I've found it really useful for locking the pf in, but it does get in the way of the steam wand where it now is, which I don't like.

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Sounds useful but the design makes it look a bit awkward. Maybe something less obvious that doesn't look like a second portafilter handle?

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