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hotmetal

WLL/Ceado video about burr seasoning, and question for owners

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I was trying to find out how much stale coffee is needed to season a grinder and came across this explanatory interview at Whole Latte Love with Tino Franzini from Ceado. It's interesting viewing and I thought it worthwhile posting, as it's a subject that gets asked a lot, opinion is divided, and sooner or later most of us are going to have a new grinder or burr set.

 

The main points he makes are:

 

- Seasoning does not affect grind quality, only grind speed and therefore dosing accuracy in an on-demand grinder like the E37S

- He says an E37S will dose more accurately after seasoning, but only by maybe 1 gram.

- The upshot of that is that there is allegedly no point whatsoever in seasoning burrs in a grinder with a doser

- It takes "a few" kilos before the burrs are bedded in - 3-5kg - he says it varies for each individual burr set

- Flats need less seasoning than conicals

 

I know this sounds a bit controversial in parts, but I hope to avoid controversy. I am really just interested primarily in hearing from other users of the E37S (and indeed other grinders, but particularly large flat OD grinders) what their experience is of this. (PLEASE let this not turn into another Flat vs Conical debate!)

 

So, big flat OD grinder users,

-how much seasoning did you do?

-what effect did you notice in terms of dosing accuracy, grind consistency, and even flavour*? (*trick question if you believe Ceado guy)

 

You can skip the first minute which is just joking about star anise and garlic…

[video=youtube_share;NwXXO_FZj9I]

Edited by hotmetal
3-5kg, grams not seconds

Rocket R58Ceado E37SAeropressAerGrind • Puck Puck cold brew widget • VST 18g basket • Torr Goldfinger 58.5 convex black Ti/walnut tamper • Torr Goldfinger 58.5 flat sharp edge tamper • Big bag o' beans • Triumph Street Triple 675R

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That instagram that was comparing grinders particle size distribution also compared Burrs before and after breaking in and showed a marked difference, which would suggest the taste profile will change. There are also numerous user experiences that suggest breaking in Burrs makes a difference to taste.

 

Caedo also have an obvious bias in suggesting that their products are ready to go from purchase.

 

Can't watch the video right now so forgive me if I am way off the mark.

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I cannot talk about taste changes .... my taste buds are not that good but I had a lot of issues with static when I first changed the burrs and that across a range of different Rave coffees

 

I seasoned with a couple of Kg rice and a couple of Kg crap coffee. End result was the static problem was pretty much resolved and has not returned across a variety of "makes and models" of coffees

 

Burrs in question were 64mm in the Santos. I have new burrs in the Royal but as it is still dosered I hardly used it yet.

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Caedo also have an obvious bias in suggesting that their products are ready to go from purchase.

 

Compak burrs come pre seasoned too i think

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Thanks guys. I hadn't really considered the point of bias. I figured he'd be giving the straight dope as a techy. I'd forgotten the instagram thing. Good points.

 

Glad to hear the static problem subsided.

 

Confession time.

I've just had a momentary rush of blood to the head as a symptom of upgraditis and have just taken delivery of what as far as I'm concerned is my last grinder upgrade - e37s. Was hesitant to post after spending so much money for fear of coming across 'all the gear and no idea' but getting it dialled in seems a bit harder than I remember from the easy-going 65E. I put half a kilo of vile Sainsburys beans through as a quick seasoning effort, then a bag of Skyscraper which I enjoyed but have been struggling to get right. And the SCC anti clump/static thing seems fiddly to get spot on. Either it seems to hold back the grinds or they come spraying out in a superfine mound. I did read of others having this issue so it wasn't unexpected but I haven't tamed it yet. I think I'm still grinding too fine for decent beans which won't help with clumps, static or grind time.

 

I've ordered a big pile of something nice and asked for some stales so I can season it a bit more before the next load of good stuff gets sacrificed on my bean altar. Just looking for hints, tips and reassurance about how it might improve.


Rocket R58Ceado E37SAeropressAerGrind • Puck Puck cold brew widget • VST 18g basket • Torr Goldfinger 58.5 convex black Ti/walnut tamper • Torr Goldfinger 58.5 flat sharp edge tamper • Big bag o' beans • Triumph Street Triple 675R

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Ah congratulations - hang in there and I'm sure it will settle down!

 

I ran 2 or 3 kilo through mine before really using it in anger so hard to really say how much difference that seasoning made as I didn't have much to compare it to. After that I was initially using a tube rather than the gigantic hopper that mine came with and the thing that definitely made the biggest difference was using a weight along with it.

 

I had a few of the crazy sprays (?!) whilst seasoning but only once in the year since then. Similarly, I've had no issues with static and only time I've had any sign of clumping was when grinding super fine for some pacamaras - but can't give much advice I'm afraid as I just seem to have been lucky with the default settings on mine as I've not really played around with the SCC thingy.

 

Good luck - all I can suggest is chomping through a kg or two of the stales when they arrive and then making sure you some weight on the beans and hopefully enjoy the output!

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I think I'm still grinding too fine for decent beans which won't help with clumps, static or grind time.

 

And doubt this is very helpful but timings wise I'm normally between 4-5 secs for 18g

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That's great JGF, thanks. Mine has a 500g (guessing) hopper so not that great big air balloon! So I won't be using a tube. Mine has only had 750g through it (250 of which were good beans). I think I started off trying to dial in the crap supermarket beans I bought to season it on the day it arrived but they all gushed which misled me into going tighter. This is way too tight for the good beans so it's taking longer to grind than I'd expect, and either clumping or spraying, all of which points to unseasoned burrs and too fine a grind. By the time my stales arrive it will have done a kilo, it'll then get another kilo of stales, then I'll run the good beans through. Hopefully it'll settle down by then and I'll have the grind more or less on target.


Rocket R58Ceado E37SAeropressAerGrind • Puck Puck cold brew widget • VST 18g basket • Torr Goldfinger 58.5 convex black Ti/walnut tamper • Torr Goldfinger 58.5 flat sharp edge tamper • Big bag o' beans • Triumph Street Triple 675R

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@hotmetal

 

Seasoning definitely helps with static, so your problems should reduce. With static you basically want to give it chance to disperse, it does this by being connected to ground via the surrounding metal. As far as I can work out the flaps that help disperse the static do so by allowing the grinds to press against each other providing a decent path to ground via the surrounding coffee but if the static is bad enough they dont always work.

 

Static can also be dispersed by grinding into a metal container, which contacts your body and helps disperse the static, or into your PF on the same basis, it can help if PF or container are touching a point in the grinder connected to ground.

 

Hopefully this is all moot once the burrs have bedded in.

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Cheers. Grinder is earthed electrically via the plug. The chute is metal and the grind button is too. I think I just need to put more beans through, get the grind level closer and it should be good.

 

While we're on meaningless metrics, what grind level does your lever point to roughly? (Assuming the range adjuster on the inside is set to the factory default, and ignoring precise zero points and different beans). Big assumptions hence 'pointless metric' but just curious.

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Rocket R58Ceado E37SAeropressAerGrind • Puck Puck cold brew widget • VST 18g basket • Torr Goldfinger 58.5 convex black Ti/walnut tamper • Torr Goldfinger 58.5 flat sharp edge tamper • Big bag o' beans • Triumph Street Triple 675R

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FWIW ~3

 

Without wishing to bang on about the weight - from the threads at the time I think coffeechap was recommending ~500g weight on beans. If you are loading up with 250g at a time you might still benefit from some additional heft on top. That tamper looks far too nice to use, but a saucer or two whacked on top might be worth a go. Good luck!

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I noticed mine definitely settled down after a few kilos. The dosing became more accurate and shots were more consistent. I had some issues getting the SCC right but now it's much better so I'm not going to play with it again! There are still a few small clumps but nothing that concerns me.

 

In terms of weight of beans, I've found it doses and pulls shots consistently until the level of beans starts to drop below the narrow throat of the hopper (feeding into the burrs). This is much lower that I had been lead to believe.

 

I still have issues with the first shot or two after loading an empty grinder - they always gush, even if I purge a shot first. I guess I need to purge more but I'm always loathed to waste so much! This is obviously not an issue if you dump your new beans on top just before the old beans are run through as the grind chamber never empties.

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That's great JGF, thanks. Mine has a 500g (guessing) hopper so not that great big air balloon! So I won't be using a tube. Mine has only had 750g through it (250 of which were good beans). I think I started off trying to dial in the crap supermarket beans I bought to season it on the day it arrived but they all gushed which misled me into going tighter. This is way too tight for the good beans so it's taking longer to grind than I'd expect, and either clumping or spraying, all of which points to unseasoned burrs and too fine a grind. By the time my stales arrive it will have done a kilo, it'll then get another kilo of stales, then I'll run the good beans through. Hopefully it'll settle down by then and I'll have the grind more or less on target.

 

If things still irritate you after time then this will set you straight: http://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?23449-Ceado-E37s-A-R-S-E-Mod

 

 

Love the little hopper you've got, very cute!!


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To be honest the clumping thing doesn't bother me and when you have the scc wide open you get really fluffy grinds - but they sometimes go everywhere or stick to the chute. I reckon once I've had a couple of kilo through and dialled in properly it'll be fine. Yes I was pleasantly surprised by the hopper!


Rocket R58Ceado E37SAeropressAerGrind • Puck Puck cold brew widget • VST 18g basket • Torr Goldfinger 58.5 convex black Ti/walnut tamper • Torr Goldfinger 58.5 flat sharp edge tamper • Big bag o' beans • Triumph Street Triple 675R

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How are you getting on @hotmetal? Have you had a chance to run some more beans through yet?

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Ha! Good timing (well, nearly). I have just got home to a big box with 5kg of 6 month old beans for this exact purpose. Still probably better than supermarket beans LOL but I won't be drinking them. If I wasn't sat here on the forum I'd be putting them through - but I've got maybe 3 drinks worth of good coffee in the bottom of the hopper all dialled in which I am going to drink tomorrow - then I'll start seasoning in earnest. To be fair though, despite not having seasoned the grinder yet, it is settling down nicely. 18g in about 5 seconds at setting 4.5ish. Fluffy grinds and not spraying around as much now I've backed off a bit. My initial mistake was to attempt to dial in some cheap Sainsburys beans which tricked me into going way too fine - hence all the trouble with static or clumps and longer than expected grind times. I should have tried a bag of good beans on the setting it came with out of the box - would've been closer LOL!


Rocket R58Ceado E37SAeropressAerGrind • Puck Puck cold brew widget • VST 18g basket • Torr Goldfinger 58.5 convex black Ti/walnut tamper • Torr Goldfinger 58.5 flat sharp edge tamper • Big bag o' beans • Triumph Street Triple 675R

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I'm just calculating in my head how long it will take to grind 5kg at a duty cycle of 5" on/30" rest if 5" gives 18g. A good couple of hours I think! Sounds like a fun evening or two with a timer and a bucket!


Rocket R58Ceado E37SAeropressAerGrind • Puck Puck cold brew widget • VST 18g basket • Torr Goldfinger 58.5 convex black Ti/walnut tamper • Torr Goldfinger 58.5 flat sharp edge tamper • Big bag o' beans • Triumph Street Triple 675R

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I found a couple of kilos seasoning beans through my E92 made the dosing much more consistent. I measured about 40 consecutive shots. The dosing was accurate to +/-0.1 g provided the hopper was between 3/4 and 1/4 full. Seasoning definitely made a difference, and it required only 2 kilos or so.


Espresso: Ceado E92 (modified for single dose); Vesuvius; VST baskets and refractometer.

Other: Aeropress, Sowden and Alessi Moka Pot; Mazzer Robur doser with Auber timer; Mazzer Mini E; Expobar Leva Dual Boiler

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Cheers Obnic. Good to know. Well I've been using it anyway in the mean time and it's getting better. I'll run this lot through and see how the dosing fares before and after if I remember. It's only had 1kg so far as the stales just arrived. +/- 0.1 is very encouraging (I know yours is the E92 but hopefully the dosing is similar). I might make a little mini bean bag to put in the hopper as a weight. I could either fill it with stale beans or rice - I'm thinking rice might be the better choice.


Rocket R58Ceado E37SAeropressAerGrind • Puck Puck cold brew widget • VST 18g basket • Torr Goldfinger 58.5 convex black Ti/walnut tamper • Torr Goldfinger 58.5 flat sharp edge tamper • Big bag o' beans • Triumph Street Triple 675R

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