Jump to content

Recommended Posts

Real world example of MWJBs earlier point:

 

Yesterday I made 2 drinks from the same bean - everything the same ie grind, dose etc. My machine is plumbed in e61

 

First one I just pulled as normal. Reached my target weight in about 36 seconds.

 

Second one I did 8 seconds of line pressure pre-infusion and then completed the rest of the pull with the pump on. This reached target weight in 33 seconds.

 

On both started timing soon as I touched the lever ie it included the infusion time on the second shot. So pre infusion speeded up the flow on the second shot so much it still reached target weight in less time than first shot!

 

I find this is common

Which shot did you prefer?

Laissez les bons temps rouler

Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Second one I did 8 seconds of line pressure pre-infusion and then completed the rest of the pull with the pump on. This reached target weight in 33 seconds.

 

 

When you say line pressure do you mean the mid-point on the lever?

 

Do you do that often? Does it only work with a plumbed in machine?

Ve ve suvivius.... /E37s/ Eazytamp / tupperware pot / completely healthy relationship with coffee (and bank manager).

Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah that’s right img - just before pump is on, mid point.

 

Only works on plumbed in machines - I have my line pressure set about 2 bar.

 

I do it very rarely as I can’t detect a difference and it’s a bit of a faff and it makes the rest of the pull a bit fast often.

 

However I do occasionally when I have a super-fine grind (decaf) and very careful prep but still get some channeling - it does help with this.

Sage Bambino - BWT Bestmax - Niche in Black. Aeropress and Aergrind

 

Live and Let Live

Link to post
Share on other sites
That sort of makes sense when using a machine with a pre determined extraction time but when youre operating the pump start and finish i find there are too many variables to approach it in the same way. also when drinking straight espresso brew ratios are pretty paramount

 

One thing I have noticed about shot time is that extending it can smooth out the taste of the coffee without wrecking it. That might even include going as far as doubling the usual one.

 

If people are going to time I think things can get complicated. I mostly use a Sage Barista Express. Low pressure infusion stage for 10 secs. it takes a few secs for water to get to the grounds. Those are probably pretty consistent. The catch comes when I am looking at the pressure gauge. It doesn't show bar but I assume the ticks on the dial are bar. There might be no output until the gauge shows 2.5 bar, well into the 10 secs. Some one reported 11 secs to flow on the version without the pressure gauge or an OPV. Their pipes when flow starts might not be as empty as mine. Still has pre infusion though.

 

I also have a Piccino. Flow starts pretty quickly. The initial flow is much darker than the BE which indicates to me that the water temperature is will over 93C at the start of a shot. I make sure that the portafilter and the shower screen bits and pieces are up to temperature and flush the machine a bit before grinding and tamping to ensure the water is close to the upper limit of the thermostat.

 

The point I'm making really is that there is unlikely to be a shot time that suites both machines. One has preconditioned the grounds and the other has use hotter water to do the same sort of thing.. Actually the hot water method for the same load of coffee gives a weaker drink. I could probably grind finer on the Piccino. Then there is the bean itself. People need to sort out the lot for themselves, grind, fill and shot time that suites their bean, machine and taste. Also the filter baskets that they can use. Things are a bit sad in that area for people that don't drink milk based and like dark roasted stronger beans. I suspect what ever they like actually. The shot time just needs to be measured from something consistent. My machine timed 30 sec for singles and 60 for doubles has been dead consistent for me providing that the other aspects have been kept constant. On my favourite bean I use the double shot through 9.3g of grinds. I have tried all of the options and that's the one that suites me. The bean still retains it's taste but is a bit stronger than if I had used the single. If I had a basket that topped out at notional 12g rather than 10 I'd probably do something different. I've now found a modified 14g that can fit and is still just about usable in my sense with 12 in it. Too much for my favourite bean. I've discounted lighter roasts of the same bean in the past on strength but will be trying them again in the 14g. I've only had the 14g for a couple of weeks and haven't yet tried dropping off the period before flow starts. There's not that much range in grinder settings before it's more or less instantaneous though - bad news on every bean I have tried in the 10g basket. That area is the one that has the most control of taste. Probably true of all machines. There is a Jampit drinker who discards the first 6 secs of flow. I used the lot on that bean.

 

;) One comment in that might cause some one to say grind finer. I could but 2 or 3 times the water going through the portafilter would be going out of the OPV. For me that generally hasn't done anything positive for the bean.

 

John

-

In Use Sage DB+IMS Shower Screen, Niche. Others Sage BE, Mazer Mini A,. Projects Little Gem, Gaggia M7D

SageBanner_v01.jpg.a45786743a4eb401969788b45ae7f893.jpg

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
Real world example of MWJBs earlier point:

 

Yesterday I made 2 drinks from the same bean - everything the same ie grind, dose etc. My machine is plumbed in e61

 

First one I just pulled as normal. Reached my target weight in about 36 seconds.

 

Second one I did 8 seconds of line pressure pre-infusion and then completed the rest of the pull with the pump on. This reached target weight in 33 seconds.

 

On both started timing soon as I touched the lever ie it included the infusion time on the second shot. So pre infusion speeded up the flow on the second shot so much it still reached target weight in less time than first shot!

 

I find this is common

 

So this is basically all I was wondering when i asked before, thanks!

 

I agree with what MWJB has suggested, I have seen these articles and watched quite a good vid on brew recipes and troubleshooting with the same extraction-strength curve used and yield is something i’ve planned on messing with when i fully get to grips with the new machine.

 

Problem is i do tend to prefer my shots strong with can bottleneck me a bit; i dont think i’d ever go much over a 1:2.5, particularly for a slightly darker roast like this sumatran. As i understand it this means my other variables need to be more precise to get the highest extraction possible - hence the reason for my asking the original q haha

 

Cheers everyone for the help, i may go ahead and try that 7 shot test at some point soon

Compak F10, Expobar Office Leva Dual, Sage Smart Grinder pro, Delonghi EC221.B(modded to hell)

Link to post
Share on other sites
Sorry to beat a dead horse on this one but i think an important question on the topic and one im struggling with a little: How do we think shot times compare between the brewtus with its 'pre-infusion chamber' (particularly with vibe pump that takes a while to ramp up anyway) vs say a commercial rotary machine which any given brew recipe is likely to be formulated on? Surely the ~ 5-8s of pre infusion time is going to give a slightly different total output time when compared with constant 9 bar pressure. If anyone has any experience in calibrating this one id be v grateful

 

Hi tobyjrn6,

 

the Brewtus and all manual E61 groups have a built-in preinfusion chamber, which is filled before the hot water hits the coffee poweder. Espresso machines such as the Vesuvius and the R60 are supposed to have modified E61 groups, so that pre-infusion is nearly disabled. This is not the case with E61 groups, who are operated by a solenoid valve. So I really wonder why the creators of the Vesuvius and R60 did not choose to use the latter.

 

Preinfusion is not related to the type of pump built into a machine. The Vesuvius uses a gear pumpt while the R60 uses a rotary pumpt. However, pressure profiling can also be realised with a vibra pump and, for instance, a dimmer (some forum members have already experimented with that).

The only reason why a rotary pump may be more suited for regulating preinfusion is that you have the line pressure with a plumped-in machine to realise preinfusion.

 

holgr

Link to post
Share on other sites

E61 pre-infusion is very different to the features provided by, say, Vesuvius.

 

And with a rotary, plumbed in e61 the ramp up is very fast - and in my opinion arguably not quite pre-infusion in the way many people think of it. It’s all over in about 1 second on my machine for example

Sage Bambino - BWT Bestmax - Niche in Black. Aeropress and Aergrind

 

Live and Let Live

Link to post
Share on other sites
Hi tobyjrn6,

 

the Brewtus and all manual E61 groups have a built-in preinfusion chamber, which is filled before the hot water hits the coffee poweder. Espresso machines such as the Vesuvius and the R60 are supposed to have modified E61 groups, so that pre-infusion is nearly disabled. This is not the case with E61 groups, who are operated by a solenoid valve. So I really wonder why the creators of the Vesuvius and R60 did not choose to use the latter.

 

Preinfusion is not related to the type of pump built into a machine. The Vesuvius uses a gear pumpt while the R60 uses a rotary pumpt. However, pressure profiling can also be realised with a vibra pump and, for instance, a dimmer (some forum members have already experimented with that).

The only reason why a rotary pump may be more suited for regulating preinfusion is that you have the line pressure with a plumped-in machine to realise preinfusion.

 

holgr

 

I know, my point was more that you have an unavoidable period of time when there is water making contact with coffee, essentially preinfusing (but out of your control, unlike with the r60 and vesuvius which i assume prevent this on purpose to give you full control over pressure/flow rate from start to finish).

 

As a result i wasnt sure how this ‘preinfusion’ and pressure ramp up time would affect total shot time.

 

Also i was under the impression that water hits the coffee and the preinfusion chamber fills up as a result of the back pressure, is that not the case??

Compak F10, Expobar Office Leva Dual, Sage Smart Grinder pro, Delonghi EC221.B(modded to hell)

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 4 months later...

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

  • About
    Coffee Forums UK is the UK's premier coffee forum Started in June 2008 by Glenn Watson, we now have more than 24000 mainly UK based members, and welcome more than 3000 members and visitors from around the world each day! With strategic investment and digital expertise from the Jackson Lockhart team (Tait Pollack and Adam Bateman), we are taking Coffee Forums UK to the next level, and are delighted to share the journey with you.

    New Members:
    We are often referred to as the friendliest forum on the web and we look forward to welcoming you onboard. Please read our Terms of Use. We stick by them, existing members please familiarise yourselves with them.

    Advertising

    Coffee Forums Media Kit

    Click Here To Buy Advertising Space 
    £100 p/m when paid yearly, up-to: 690000 banner impressions per month!

     

    coffee-subscription-mini.png

    Become a friend of CFUK
    Buy Us A Monthly Coffee (massive thank you!) 

     

    Donate / Sponsor

    Click Here To Donate (big thank you!)

    Get Your Supporter Badge Today (per year)

    image.png



    Coffee Forums Logo
     

×
×
  • Create New...