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Hey,

When do you guys start the timer for your shots? As soon as you lift the lever, or after the pre infusion is done and the gauge ramps up to 9bar?

I guess it doesn't matter as long as its kept consistent but it would be nice to relate it to other machines shot times that don't have a pre infusion built in.

Cheers!

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AFAIK on E61 or I suppose any pump machine it's timed from pump on to pump off (or lever up to lever down in the case of e61 lever operated pump machines). At least, that's what I've been doing!


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Me too, like you stated not an issue as long as you start the timer on the same function


Isomac Alba

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Hi,

 

with the Brewuts E61 group, you should start the timer when full pressure is reached. Everyhing before that is preinfusion.

You have to measure the pressure directly at the group, the built-in gauges are not very accurate. When I have a pressure of 9,5 bar at the group, the gauge shows 11 bars.

 

Best regards,

holgr

 

Hey,

When do you guys start the timer for your shots? As soon as you lift the lever, or after the pre infusion is done and the gauge ramps up to 9bar?

I guess it doesn't matter as long as its kept consistent but it would be nice to relate it to other machines shot times that don't have a pre infusion built in.

Cheers!

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This confused me initially as my BE does have infusion - runs the pump at a low pressure initially. Depending on strength required, fill and grind etc little or nothing can come out of the portafilter. Time from when it starts to flow. Initially I thought it should be from when the pump starts which didn't show any pressure at all.

 

However nothing is cast in stone - the aim is a drink that will be enjoyed.

 

;) A single shot should be 30ml too and a double 60ml. As most people see that in and out weight are the important aspect it would make more sense to use that to control what comes out. The time taken could vary widely due to the strength of extraction that is needed. My machine has timed extractions but I use the volume produced to control minor variations in the grind settings that are needed from time to time. The grinder is the biggest variable in the chain, even so it surprises me just how consistent they can be. Drinking out of glass helps as the volume variations can be seen.

 

John

-


In Use Sage DB+IMS Shower Screen, Niche. Profitec T64. Others Sage BE, Mazer Mini A, Ceado 37J. Projects Little Gem, Gaggia M7D

:pToo many filter baskets - maybe. For sale when I get round to it. Robur Elect, Ceado 37J, Ascaso i_1,Piccino

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This confused me initially as my BE does have infusion - runs the pump at a low pressure initially. Depending on strength required, fill and grind etc little or nothing can come out of the portafilter. Time from when it starts to flow. Initially I thought it should be from when the pump starts which didn't show any pressure at all.

 

However nothing is cast in stone - the aim is a drink that will be enjoyed.

 

;) A single shot should be 30ml too and a double 60ml. As most people see that in and out weight are the important aspect it would make more sense to use that to control what comes out. The time taken could vary widely due to the strength of extraction that is needed. My machine has timed extractions but I use the volume produced to control minor variations in the grind settings that are needed from time to time. The grinder is the biggest variable in the chain, even so it surprises me just how consistent they can be. Drinking out of glass helps as the volume variations can be seen.

 

John

-

 

Timing when the pumps starts helps to set a common language , so people can adjust and help when needed , using that common language. Plus it's when the coffee starts extracting as that is when water hits it , irrespective of pre infusion or not .

Otherwise it's like going to a shop and trying to pay in a currency thats base 8 .. only you really know what your on about . If you are happy with your coffee and don;t need help then time how you want. If you are trying to help people adjust and get to tasty .. then using recipes that timed differently isn't helpful.

A single/double shot should be whats tasty not 30 ml not 60 ml, not 1:2 by weight, not 30 seconds.

All that happens when people give out absolutes is that people make disappointing coffee by numbers , add some milk and repeat.

Consistent measures to adjust is what's key especially early on in making coffee.

Weight/ volume and time are measures to help adjust to get to tasty not what tasty is ( either volume or weight ) .


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Sorry to beat a dead horse on this one but i think an important question on the topic and one im struggling with a little: How do we think shot times compare between the brewtus with its 'pre-infusion chamber' (particularly with vibe pump that takes a while to ramp up anyway) vs say a commercial rotary machine which any given brew recipe is likely to be formulated on? Surely the ~ 5-8s of pre infusion time is going to give a slightly different total output time when compared with constant 9 bar pressure. If anyone has any experience in calibrating this one id be v grateful


BLUE Mazzer Major, Expobar Office Leva Dual, Sage Smart Grinder pro, Delonghi EC221.B(modded to hell)

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Sorry to beat a dead horse on this one but i think an important question on the topic and one im struggling with a little: How do we think shot times compare between the brewtus with its 'pre-infusion chamber' (particularly with vibe pump that takes a while to ramp up anyway) vs say a commercial rotary machine which any given brew recipe is likely to be formulated on? Surely the ~ 5-8s of pre infusion time is going to give a slightly different total output time when compared with constant 9 bar pressure. If anyone has any experience in calibrating this one id be v grateful

 

The grind will be different between the 2 scenarios. +/- 5s we might be taking the same level of extraction for the same brew ratio & grind.

 

Time from a tangible start, stop of the pump. Everything else requires a leap of faith/allowing for unknown variables.


“Coffee evokes the most insane reactions in people”, Rene Redzepi.

 

https://markwjburness.wordpress.com/

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The grind will be different between the 2 scenarios. +/- 5s we might be taking the same level of extraction for the same brew ratio & grind.

 

Time from a tangible start, stop of the pump. Everything else requires a leap of faith/allowing for unknown variables.

 

That's kind of what I was thinking, presumably if timing from start of water flow (say a second after lever up) then youd be looking at a few extra seconds on your total shot time given the slower pre-infusion period. Just wondering is anyone has had any luck getting a more quantitative time guideline they follow so that I can get some consistency to my timings.


BLUE Mazzer Major, Expobar Office Leva Dual, Sage Smart Grinder pro, Delonghi EC221.B(modded to hell)

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That's kind of what I was thinking, presumably if timing from start of water flow (say a second after lever up) then youd be looking at a few extra seconds on your total shot time given the slower pre-infusion period. Just wondering is anyone has had any luck getting a more quantitative time guideline they follow so that I can get some consistency to my timings.

 

Consistency should be based on flavour balance, absolute consistency in timings will lead to bigger variations in extraction & flavour balance.

 

Preinfusion often leads to faster flow, over no prinfusion, so it's swings & roundabouts. If you were switch between scenarios, you'd still check consistency via grind setting & flavour balance & it could be perfectly OK for times to wander (either from one machine to another, or for shots of different coffee on the same machine).


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https://markwjburness.wordpress.com/

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No sure i'm with you on all of that. I more meant given the same bean, dose, brew ratio and temp, obviously varying grind - do you have any experience with what sort of time discrepancy (if any, some prior reading and 'swings and roundabouts' suggests maybe not) one might expect for optimal extraction between the two setups. I.e. how much your optimal extraction time might deviate from one quoted in an optimal brew recipe provided by your roaster.

 

I'm only putting such a fine point on it because when im a long way off its easy to taste an obvious sour or bitter as a result of under or overextraction but when i get really close it feels more like guess work as to whats actually off (probably on account of the palate not being up to scratch), so if i know which side of under or over im likely to be leaning as a result of the pre-infusion situation it should be easier to dial in to optimal without wasting loads of coffee.

 

Cheers for all the advice by the way.


BLUE Mazzer Major, Expobar Office Leva Dual, Sage Smart Grinder pro, Delonghi EC221.B(modded to hell)

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I'm only putting such a fine point on it because when im a long way off its easy to taste an obvious sour or bitter as a result of under or overextraction but when i get really close it feels more like guess work as to whats actually off (probably on account of the palate not being up to scratch), so if i know which side of under or over im likely to be leaning as a result of the pre-infusion situation it should be easier to dial in to optimal without wasting loads of coffee.

 

Cheers for all the advice by the way.

 

At the same grind setting, bean, temp & brew ratio, consistent prep you are not likely to be sweeping from under-extracted to over-extracted...even with 5-6s difference in shot time. Shot time isn't a good enough indicator of extraction. It might well be that your bitterness could be caused by something other than over-extraction.

 

What's your start point for dialling in?


“Coffee evokes the most insane reactions in people”, Rene Redzepi.

 

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At the same grind setting, bean, temp & brew ratio, consistent prep you are not likely to be sweeping from under-extracted to over-extracted...even with 5-6s difference in shot time. Shot time isn't a good enough indicator of extraction. It might well be that your bitterness could be caused by something other than over-extraction.

 

What's your start point for dialling in?

 

Sorry I meant to say under/over extraction *when dialling in, and actually all of the above is with respect to properly dialling a bean in. And I go by weight in and out, with time as a guideline for extraction so its just a case of wanting a more realistic guideline to work from than the one provided by the roaster, given the variations in our kit if that makes sense.


BLUE Mazzer Major, Expobar Office Leva Dual, Sage Smart Grinder pro, Delonghi EC221.B(modded to hell)

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Sorry I meant to say under/over extraction *when dialling in, and actually all of the above is with respect to properly dialling a bean in. And I go by weight in and out, with time as a guideline for extraction so its just a case of wanting a more realistic guideline to work from than the one provided by the roaster, given the variations in our kit if that makes sense.

 

Roasters usually give a ratio (strength) & time. The variations in kit are more likely to manifest themselves in limitations of brew ratio than time.

 

what are the guidelines for, say, the last few bags of beans you had?


“Coffee evokes the most insane reactions in people”, Rene Redzepi.

 

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Ive just polished off a bag of signature from rave which was just over 2:1 in 27-32s i believe and now onto their sumatra super gayo which wants about 1.75:1 in 25-27. So i’m dosing 18.5g into a vst 18g (using wdt) and adjusting my grind to hit that brew ratio within that time frame and while theyre good shots by all means I feel like theres more that I can get out of them having tasted a few ‘god shots’ in the past


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I've tried all sorts. The machine does timed shots. I've found that the thing that needs to be most consistent is the weight of the grinds in the filter basket. The grinder has a timer as well so that needs some method of detecting changes in the weight it produces before there is a noticeable change in taste.

 

I generally don't worry about what the ratio actually ends up being more the taste of the drink that it produces. The drink I finish up with gets a pretty consistent quantity of water added but I do vary the milk a bit at times depending on the bean.

 

I have tried altering the shot timer but eventually set it back to the default the machine comes set to.

 

One area I haven't really looked at is what happens if I get a really short shot in that time due to grind settings. I can tell pretty closely because of the glass mugs I use. I have wondered what would happen if I extended the time but when this gets really noticeable most of the water coming out of the pump is going out of the OPV and into the drip tray. Taste wise drinks made like that have a tendency to all taste the same irrespective of the bean. Not too good either. On that score I often find myself balancing getting some pre infusion pressure and maybe some flow out of the OPV. If I then measure the ratio it's generally around 1 to 2.2 or so depending on the bean.

 

To be honest I feel that the whole thing has to be done on taste.

 

John

-


In Use Sage DB+IMS Shower Screen, Niche. Profitec T64. Others Sage BE, Mazer Mini A, Ceado 37J. Projects Little Gem, Gaggia M7D

:pToo many filter baskets - maybe. For sale when I get round to it. Robur Elect, Ceado 37J, Ascaso i_1,Piccino

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I've tried all sorts. The machine does timed shots. I've found that the thing that needs to be most consistent is the weight of the grinds in the filter basket. The grinder has a timer as well so that needs some method of detecting changes in the weight it produces before there is a noticeable change in taste.

 

I generally don't worry about what the ratio actually ends up being more the taste of the drink that it produces. The drink I finish up with gets a pretty consistent quantity of water added but I do vary the milk a bit at times depending on the bean.

 

I have tried altering the shot timer but eventually set it back to the default the machine comes set to.

 

One area I haven't really looked at is what happens if I get a really short shot in that time due to grind settings. I can tell pretty closely because of the glass mugs I use. I have wondered what would happen if I extended the time but when this gets really noticeable most of the water coming out of the pump is going out of the OPV and into the drip tray. Taste wise drinks made like that have a tendency to all taste the same irrespective of the bean. Not too good either. On that score I often find myself balancing getting some pre infusion pressure and maybe some flow out of the OPV. If I then measure the ratio it's generally around 1 to 2.2 or so depending on the bean.

 

To be honest I feel that the whole thing has to be done on taste.

 

John

-

 

That sort of makes sense when using a machine with a pre determined extraction time but when youre operating the pump start and finish i find there are too many variables to approach it in the same way. also when drinking straight espresso brew ratios are pretty paramount


BLUE Mazzer Major, Expobar Office Leva Dual, Sage Smart Grinder pro, Delonghi EC221.B(modded to hell)

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Ive just polished off a bag of signature from rave which was just over 2:1 in 27-32s i believe and now onto their sumatra super gayo which wants about 1.75:1 in 25-27. So i’m dosing 18.5g into a vst 18g (using wdt) and adjusting my grind to hit that brew ratio within that time frame and while theyre good shots by all means I feel like theres more that I can get out of them having tasted a few ‘god shots’ in the past

 

Try pulling them a bit longer, 1:2.5 or 1:3.


“Coffee evokes the most insane reactions in people”, Rene Redzepi.

 

https://markwjburness.wordpress.com/

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im not sure that really helps at all with my query but thanks for the advice anyway.

 

Toby


BLUE Mazzer Major, Expobar Office Leva Dual, Sage Smart Grinder pro, Delonghi EC221.B(modded to hell)

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im not sure that really helps at all with my query but thanks for the advice anyway.

 

Toby

 

25 to 32 seconds (29s +/-3 or 4s) doesn't necessarily signify different extractions. Going longer on the ratio (in a similar time frame) will increase extraction at a useable grind setting.

 

Ask yourself what percentage of your shots at the shorter ratios were "god shots", how many times did you start at those ratios & timings & think, 'bang on, or just a little tweak'? If not very often, then it may be the short ratios that are the issue, rather than a second here or there.


“Coffee evokes the most insane reactions in people”, Rene Redzepi.

 

https://markwjburness.wordpress.com/

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25 to 32 seconds (29s +/-3 or 4s) doesn't necessarily signify different extractions. Going longer on the ratio (in a similar time frame) will increase extraction at a useable grind setting.

 

Ask yourself what percentage of your shots at the shorter ratios were "god shots", how many times did you start at those ratios & timings & think, 'bang on, or just a little tweak'? If not very often, then it may be the short ratios that are the issue, rather than a second here or there.

 

I think this post on Barista Hustle nicely illustrates what you're saying @MWJB https://baristahustle.com/blogs/barista-hustle/diy-extraction-tasting and the embedded article within it on how to taste the differences in extraction is really helpful https://baristahustle.com/blogs/barista-hustle/coffee-extraction-and-how-to-taste-it


Lelit Mara 62, Niche Grinder, Decent Espresso tamper, V60, CCD, Aeropress, French Press, Moka pot, Kinu M47, Feldgrind, Porlex Mini, Kawasaki Versys 650 mk1

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I think this post on Barista Hustle nicely illustrates what you're saying @MWJB https://baristahustle.com/blogs/barista-hustle/diy-extraction-tasting and the embedded article within it on how to taste the differences in extraction is really helpful https://baristahustle.com/blogs/barista-hustle/coffee-extraction-and-how-to-taste-it

 

And this https://baristahustle.com/blogs/barista-hustle/espresso-recipes-understanding-yield


Lelit Mara 62, Niche Grinder, Decent Espresso tamper, V60, CCD, Aeropress, French Press, Moka pot, Kinu M47, Feldgrind, Porlex Mini, Kawasaki Versys 650 mk1

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Real world example of MWJBs earlier point:

 

Yesterday I made 2 drinks from the same bean - everything the same ie grind, dose etc. My machine is plumbed in e61

 

First one I just pulled as normal. Reached my target weight in about 36 seconds.

 

Second one I did 8 seconds of line pressure pre-infusion and then completed the rest of the pull with the pump on. This reached target weight in 33 seconds.

 

On both started timing soon as I touched the lever ie it included the infusion time on the second shot. So pre infusion speeded up the flow on the second shot so much it still reached target weight in less time than first shot!

 

I find this is common


Plumbed in Vesuvius - BWT Bestmax - Niche in Black. Aeropress and Aergrind

 

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