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Boffin thread ( ek43, refracting, pressure profiling, ; other guff)

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One thread to bore them all....

Place so all the boffin posts can go in one place . and then its easy for those that aren't interested to ignore them. If its of no interest please feel free to walk on by to a thread that you are interested in...

More later ...

Edited by Mrboots2u

I write a blog, it's nothing to do with coffee ...

https://rjwinc.wordpress.com

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182a641a7de77406f58e902d0a36a930.jpg

One thread to bore them all....

Place so all the boffin posts can go in one place . and then its easy for those that aren't interested to ignore them. If its of no interest please feel free to walk on by to a thread that you are interested in...

More later ...

 

Where are the safety specs, tut tut!

 

I think you should get yourself a lab coat with your name embroidered on it, Martin. My first lab job I had that and I was bizarrely excited about that! The novelty soon wore off though as I was making compounds not coffee!


Sage Dual Boiler/ EK43 /Technivorm Moccamaster/Feldgrind / Aeropress / Clever Dripper /Bodum & Le Creuset Cafétières

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Been playing around with the same coffee and different profiles last few days , in an effort, to see what it did to taste and extraction yield........Trying to get the tds ( strength ) up on shots , to get the brew ratio down , but still keep a higher extraction yield ....

This morning all the star aligned .....

Wanna say , I always taste before i refract , to get taste notes uneffected by extraction yield numbers

Papercup Rwandan - Nordic style roast

Tasting notes - perfect balance of cherry cola and sweetness , no bitterness , no acidity , stonking....

Numbers

Grind 1.4 Callum Dial

Dose 17.7g in 18 g vst

Tamp - less than finger pressure

Profile 1 - Leverish?

10 seconds at 2 bar - 4 seconds at 9 bar - 2 seconds at 6 bar - 2 seconds at 5 bar - 2 seconds at 4 bar - 3 seconds at 3 bar 2 bar til the end

Pump acceleration 225 means alot of preinfusion seemed to be at under 2 bar

Temp 93 deg ( offset 13.5 )

Weight out 42g

TDS 9.9

Extraction Yield 24.47 %

 

Wowsers , want another ............

[ATTACH=CONFIG]10775[/ATTACH]

Edited by Mrboots2u

I write a blog, it's nothing to do with coffee ...

https://rjwinc.wordpress.com

Instagram - rjw_inc

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Refraction numpty here and still struggling to get my head round gauging TDS.

 

What's the TDS target that your aiming for? Is it somewhere between say 22-25% or does it differ from bean to bean.

 

Or is it a constant?

 

Or is it just another variable that you can tweak along with dose, extraction weight, time, temp etc......

 

Or is it the result of the combination of the above?

 

I've just realised I've asked loads of questions one after the other....sorry mate.


Sage DB; Mazzer Major; VST 15g, 18g & 20g Baskets;TORR Trapez & Perger Tamper

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Pushing TDS to raise extraction yields above 21-22% unlock amazing sweetness in the bean - has the effect of balancing the fruit acidity in lighter roasts.


Londinium-R - EKS43 running SSP Silver Knight burrs

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The extraction yield (24.47% of the coffee in the PF being dissolved into liquid) is really the target, it just so happens that in Martin's case that at his brew ratio (depicted by the sloping green line), at 24.47% extraction yield that the %TDS (concentration of the shot, weight of the dissolved coffee as a proportion of weight of the coffee in the cup) is 9.9%.

 

You can make 9.9% shots at a bunch of ratios, but they coincide with a pretty narrow range of extraction yields. Extraction yield drives the flavour balance, sometimes you might pick up similar flavours from a brewed coffee as you do from an espresso from the same coffee, this is likely because you have hit a preferable extraction yield, despite the fact that the brewed coffee & the shot are very different strengths.

 

This chart shows (almost - with my laptop I can only hit 17.6 or 17.8g dose) Martin's shot...from the moment he decided to cut the shot ~42g from a 17.7g dose, his result was destined to land on the green line...most typical grinders (flat, or conical) would be aiming to land in the shaded box (between 7.5 & 8.5% TDS, though because they can't usually hit a nice tasting shot at 24%EY they'd often aim for a shorter brew ratio, higher concentration, raising them vertically up the chart).

 

VSTCoffeeTools_Brew_Chart_121514_Martins244EY_zps248f8d83.png

 

When you are aiming for a certain extraction weight, you are (whether you know it, or not) also aiming for certain range of %TDS & % Extraction yield. Dose, temp, time & grind (water, prep, grinder...) all may affect how easy/hard it is to achieve a desirable/target yield. Sometimes you may have aim for a lower target EY to get the best flavour balance you can.

Edited by MWJB

“Coffee evokes the most insane reactions in people”, Rene Redzepi.

 

https://markwjburness.wordpress.com/

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Thanks mark. Absolutely agree , some coffee taste better and more balanced at say 19 ish extraction yield ( although not many ....) This one, I wanted to push more sweetness into the espresso so tried going for a higher target extraction yield.


I write a blog, it's nothing to do with coffee ...

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The profile i was using looks at first glance lever based. A lever when released will in general hit a pressure quite quickly ( unless you retard it slowly ). With the slow pump acceleration it gives this profile a slower ramp to 9 bar. In fact I'm not sure its hitting 9 bar as the pump as the acceleration may not allow it too. I'll try again tomorrow to check

Edited by Mrboots2u

I write a blog, it's nothing to do with coffee ...

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To achieve 24% on the sage Id be looking at about 20g->55g out with a TDS considerably lower than 9.9! Bravo.

 

8.5-8.7% TDS ish

Edited by garydyke1

@garydyke1

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Thanks MWJB, I've re-read this a few times and it's now hurting my head less. :)


Sage DB; Mazzer Major; VST 15g, 18g & 20g Baskets;TORR Trapez & Perger Tamper

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Been playing around with the same coffee and different profiles last few days , in an effort, to see what it did to taste and extraction yield........Trying to get the tds ( strength ) up on shots , to get the brew ratio down , but still keep a higher extraction yield ....

This morning all the star aligned .....

Wanna say , I always taste before i refract , to get taste notes uneffected by extraction yield numbers

Papercup Rwandan - Nordic style roast

Tasting notes - perfect balance of cherry cola and sweetness , no bitterness , no acidity , stonking....

Numbers

Grind 1.4 Callum Dial

Dose 17.7g in 18 g vst

Tamp - less than finger pressure

Profile 1 - Leverish?

10 seconds at 2 bar - 4 seconds at 9 bar - 2 seconds at 6 bar - 2 seconds at 5 bar - 2 seconds at 4 bar - 3 seconds at 3 bar 2 bar til the end

Pump acceleration 225 means alot of preinfusion seemed to be at under 2 bar

Temp 93 deg ( offset 13.5 )

Weight out 42g

TDS 9.9

Extraction Yield 24.47 %

 

Wowsers , want another ............

 

Sounds nice! Did you manage to repeat it? What was the final shot time?


DE1Pro, EK43 SSP, bloody tasty coffee!

GrindScience.com - My blog of coffee related ramblings

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Sounds nice! Did you manage to repeat it? What was the final shot time?

 

Nope , not repeated yet...

Oh woe is me made some 22 % percent spro last night

Taste notes excellent , just not as sweet or as intense as the mornings shot , slight bit of grapefruit came through in the finish

Gonna move into another coffee today as nearly out of Rwandan

Gonna run one coffee through some profiles today ....

Got my profile from above

Gonna go slow slams up for another .

Flat 5 bar

Any other suggestions spence ?


I write a blog, it's nothing to do with coffee ...

https://rjwinc.wordpress.com

Instagram - rjw_inc

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That vintage LM lever profile does something different for sure. I got a really thick gloopy cup out of it which isn't the norm for EK :)

 

7sec 2bar - 3sec 12bar - 6sec 9.4bar - 7sec 8bar - 3sec 7bar - 4sec 5.6bar - 7sec 5.6

 

I would also try a pre-infusion with a straight 8bar which works nicely.


DE1Pro, EK43 SSP, bloody tasty coffee!

GrindScience.com - My blog of coffee related ramblings

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Ok ill add that in today . Was the gloopy shot on the Turks on the coffee burrs spence

Presuming pump acceleration was at 400 also .


I write a blog, it's nothing to do with coffee ...

https://rjwinc.wordpress.com

Instagram - rjw_inc

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Been playing around with the same coffee and different profiles last few days , in an effort, to see what it did to taste and extraction yield........Trying to get the tds ( strength ) up on shots , to get the brew ratio down , but still keep a higher extraction yield ....

This morning all the star aligned .....

Wanna say , I always taste before i refract , to get taste notes uneffected by extraction yield numbers

Papercup Rwandan - Nordic style roast

Tasting notes - perfect balance of cherry cola and sweetness , no bitterness , no acidity , stonking....

Numbers

Grind 1.4 Callum Dial

Dose 17.7g in 18 g vst

Tamp - less than finger pressure

Profile 1 - Leverish?

10 seconds at 2 bar - 4 seconds at 9 bar - 2 seconds at 6 bar - 2 seconds at 5 bar - 2 seconds at 4 bar - 3 seconds at 3 bar 2 bar til the end

Pump acceleration 225 means alot of preinfusion seemed to be at under 2 bar

Temp 93 deg ( offset 13.5 )

Weight out 42g

TDS 9.9

Extraction Yield 24.47 %

 

Nice one Martin, I'll give it a go this morning!


Rod

Vesuvius DBPP, Niche Zero, Cafelat XT portafilter (using in naked config), VST filter baskets, Torr Goldfinger Nero convex, Acaia Lunar.

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Ok been taking a different approach last few days

Ive upped the dose a little bit (19-21g )

Gone a little coarser on the ek ( a few mini notches on the EK )

Just to see how the coffee tastes - same brew ratios ish.....little bit longer contact time with the coffee ( shots are a little bit longer )

Current favourite profile is based on the T3

6 seconds at 2 bar then

1 at 3 bar -1 at 4 bar -1 at 5 bar -1 at 6 bar-1 at 7 bar

Rest at 9 bar....

with a larger dose i think i wanna extend the ramp up a little bit so am gonna keep first phase the same and extend the time at 3-5 bar

then put in a short share decline at the end from 9 bar . So 5-6 at 9 bar then one last phase at 4 bar ....

Pulled a lot of shots and refracted some different coffees over the last couple of weeks, in terms of taste and what you can tastily extract , the roast or how developed a coffee is plays a massive part ( not referring to how dark or light a coffee is here btw )

Perhaps cupping like prufrock and Rao do with the refractor might give a benchmark . Random thoughts i wont bore you with ( ill only do this with MWJB )


I write a blog, it's nothing to do with coffee ...

https://rjwinc.wordpress.com

Instagram - rjw_inc

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EK43 and chemex experiment.

 

Target - After the bloom all water in at once by 1 min 45sec mark.

Amend grind to get an acceptable target total brew time

Find ideal cup profile

 

30g / 500g / 4-5 mins?

 

bloom 75g water and churned up with a mini whisk 3 times. 30 seconds

Then exactly the same pouring technique each time, washing around the outside so no high and dry bang on 1min 45. coffee used was a delicious chocolately Bolivia Apolo.

 

Results :

 

grind setting (old dial) - total time

 

9 - 2 mins 40

8 - 3 mins

7 - 3 mins 40**

6 - 3 mins 55

5 - 3 mins 30

4.5 - 3 mins 20**

 

 

As you can see something odd occurs. Although the grind is progressively finer, the flow rate actually increases once we go past 6. Something must be occurring in terms of particle distribution , maybe less fines as we go finer?!!? In any case there was no stalling or choking of the brew unlike the Uber grinder which when you get too fine it just stalls completely and destroys the brew.

 

I ran out of this coffee but it would have been fun to keep going to 4, 3.5 and 3.

 

** These were the most tasty cups . Brews on 5 and 6 tasted very under extracted.


@garydyke1

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Hmm did you refract any ?

I will give this a go , if i can convert the dial to dial settings .....

Go a bag of the xmas filter I could use ...

So after bloom are you pouring in centre and out or as the post above suggests just round the edges?


I write a blog, it's nothing to do with coffee ...

https://rjwinc.wordpress.com

Instagram - rjw_inc

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Ive not got a VST at home at the minute, was going purely by taste (which is king) it helps if you know the coffee well.

 

Pouring in centre outwards and inwards....outwards and inwards finishing around the outside with the last 50g or so.

 

Bare in mind I have the MK2 fictional burrs


@garydyke1

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Ok am gonna give Garys experiment ago ......

75 g in for a 30 second bloom

Gonna try and hit an even flow rate ....

at

45 seconds total water added = 160g

60 seconds total water added = 245 g

75 seconds total water added = 330g

90 seconds total water added = 415g

105 seconds total water added = 500 g

then wait ........

Ill give this a go on the Ek the night try the haus also ...


I write a blog, it's nothing to do with coffee ...

https://rjwinc.wordpress.com

Instagram - rjw_inc

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Tried grind setting 4 today , different coffee. El Salvador Finca Argentina San Jorge tablon pulped natural , foliar sprays and molybdenum treatment. This coffee was amazing on the cupping table yesterday , although good cupping doesn't always equate to good brewed coffee in isolation.

 

Was more focused and in tune with the pouring , all water in by 1min 50 sec - 4 mins 50 seconds when final drips came through! First time it looked like it might stall. It was a nice cup, maybe a little boring (v low acidity and moderate sweetness, good body and clean), i've not woken up properly yet tho.

 

The two points of interest seem to be grind setting >6 and grind setting 4.54 we get a definite change of behaviour in flow rates either side of these points. I would like to stick to one coffee and run brews at settings 4.0, 4.2, 4.4 & 6.0, 5.8, 5.6, 5.4 this needs a lot of water and patience !

Edited by garydyke1

@garydyke1

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