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El carajillo

6 months with a verona

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When I decided to upgrade I did all the research and comparisons and decided on the Verona. I visited Bella Barista on the forum day and viewed the Verona and "played" on it. Revisited Bella/B early December to collect machine and grinder. I could not set up immediately as I was completing some decorating.

All fired up and set it up AHHH portafilter would not lock in fully, group seal too hard.(Dave C pointed this out to Quick Mill on review) phoned B/B and replacement sent by post.Delivered to wrong house in Christmas post but neighbour eventually brought it around.

Up and running at last GREAT COFFEE, superb steaming, I am liking this.

Two months in, a pool of water underneath, NOT HAPPY. Telephoned B/B, could I look underneath to see where it was leaking and photograph if possible.

 

IT WAS A TWO HUNDRED PLUS MILE TRIP TO COLLECT THIS MACHINE AND GRINDER.

Propped it on two benches and removed the access plate, leak was from brew boiler heating element, photographed and sent to B/B.

As I did not fancy another long trip or sending it via courier for expense and possible damage I asked B/B to send me a new boiler seal and I would replace it myself.

Wrong seal arrived so reverted to Gaggia Classic to maintain sanity and cool.

Seal arrived machine drained down element out (30 mm socket) seal replaced electrics reconnected prime machine, up and running again.

 

I had stripped , photographed and rebuilt the Classic with a view to selling it but I thought I might hold on to it for a while !!!!!

 

12 May a.m. another pool of water under the VERONA. Back on two benches off with the I/plate steam boiler leaking. Contact B/B can I have a steam boiler gasket.

Completely drain machine and remove case, not only leaking from heating element seal but also from boiler fill union. This element requires a 1 1/2" (38 mm) deep socket to remove it, fortunately I have one of these for car work,definitely not an average tool.

Too tight, have to remove boiler in order to hold while undoing element, guess what, union on top of boiler has been cross threaded at some point, patience will overcome but it is getting VERY short !!!

 

Element replaced unions sorted out, all reassembled, primed and up and running.

 

I Emailed Quickmill G/manager but received no reply,then E/m G/manager ,Technical /m and Sales/m eventually had a reply saying sorry and what would I like Q/M to do

I requested an exchange/replacement that had been checked at the factory as I was unsure what might go wrong next. This was rejected and I was offered a "TAMPER OR A BOTTOMLESS PORTAFILTER I did say they could send me the P/F and a selection of seals as I might need them in the future, I have not heard from Quickmill since.

 

Underneath their LOGO their mission statement says

 

MADE TO LAST FOR YEARS. Does this mean more than six months???????

 

All the information above is as it was discussed with B/B and E/ms sent to Quickmill. Nothing has been added or left out.

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]7747[/ATTACH] [ATTACH=CONFIG]7748[/ATTACH] [ATTACH=CONFIG]7749[/ATTACH] [ATTACH=CONFIG]7750[/ATTACH]

 

As a cautionary note for members thinking of buying equipment from abroard if things go wrong you could be in for very expensive return courier charges

 

Bella Barista have been helpful throughout and have offered me a £50 voucher to spend with them.

 

The problem with the seals arises because the thread on the elements is reduced at the flange and unless the seal is held centrally when fitting /tightening it moves to one side and only gives a partial millimetre seal. As these elements are fitted on other machines it is a common design fault

VERONA LEAKS 002.jpg

VERONA LEAKS 007.jpg

VERONA LEAKS 008.jpg

VERONA LEAKS 015.jpg

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Such a shame you have had these problems Frank and it's a testament to your nature and patience that you dug in and sorted them out yourself, very luckily you have the skills to do this, it could have been disastrous for someone who isn't maintenance minded. I think you have gotten excellent service from BB, as we have come to expect, but I think it's shocking on Quickmill's part , that it took so long for you to get any response and then for them not to follow through on their offer or even reply to you.


Common sense is not a gift, it's a punishment. Because you have to deal with everyone that doesn't have it !!!

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That's a shame, I've had mine a couple of months and it's been fault free, but to be fair, mine is the one DavecUK done the review on so would've been thoroughly checked over


Espresso: Quick Mill Verona

Grinder: Mythos and loving it

Tampers: Reg Barber flat 58.35

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I am disappointed as well, the heating element to have such a close fit like that really isn't the way and of course is prone to fitting errors unless they are very careful. It was/is the same on lots of machines. The Vesuvius uses O rings, rather than those hard white Teflon gaskets and it's much better, because the forces required to tighten are very small and they make a much better seal. I have fixed Duetto leaking brew boiler elements by using a Central heating pump washer (wide flat edpm washer, use dow 111 on each side of washer.), but I am not sure they would work on a Steam boiler, might just be a bit too hot. However I would also be tempted to try silicon o'ring's as a better solution should it ever happen again.

 

I must admit to be less and less happy to do reviews, because I always feel a small twinge of responsibility when these things happen, especially when I've spent perhaps 20-50 hours of my time on a review.. I strip down the machines a long way, but I really can't afford the time to remove heating elements and check exactly how they are fitted. I have to have some confidence in the manufacturers. I also try and use them for a month, to work out any "problems". With the QM Verona, I had 2 of them, one of which I bought for myself. It irks even more when manufacturers don't fix issues I have identified (it's the reason I don't like reviewing Rocket machines).

 

To be honest now I'm much more interested in working with the companies to design or input significantly to the design of machines. I had lots of fun working on the Vesuvius and am having even more working on a totally new machine, which is currently still in the computer. I'm certainly going to try and make sure none of this sort of shit is a problem. We're even looking to make the pipes from a different metal to copper or steel, because it could be better, especially if it's workable..


Crem One 2B DBPP (pre production version), ACS Vesuvius DBPP, Izzo Duetto DB, Minima DB, Lelit Bianca Prototype DBPP (paddle flow control), Lelit Mara X Prototype, BTC Machines: Roasters: Amazon Dalian 1kg Drum Roaster, other failed roasters: Grinders: Ceado E92, Niche US and UK, Eureka Atom Speciality 75, Eureka "Blow UP System", VDT Vibration thing: 145kg assorted greens: My reviews at https://coffeeequipmentreviews.wordpress.com/

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I've had mine for almost a year without a single issue, it's a shame that one went out the door without the appropriate levels of care during assembly. Sorry to hear that QM haven't helped out either.


DE1Pro, EK43 SSP, bloody tasty coffee!

GrindScience.com - My blog of coffee related ramblings

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I'm with DavidBondy (I've provided some references below) however, I think you have to return the machine to BB at your cost, at least initially, to trigger your Statutory protection.

 

I'm sorry this is lengthy.

 

Facts

------

 

The machine was faulty on delivery.

You bought the machine without any knowledge of the faults.

Though you did not return the machine, you opened the discussion with BB within 6 months.

Your repairs are competent and sanctioned by BB.

 

Available Remedy

--------------------

The Sale of Goods Act 1979 obliges a retailer to refund for faulty goods rejected without acceptance, and to repair or replace faulty goods returned within 6 months. You can still reject an unsatisfactory repair for a refund.

 

 

The issues in your case are

-------------------------------

- did you 'accept' the machine and then subsequently discover a fault - if so BB can repair or replace, although if that fails you can reject for a refund. Since the faults took time to become apparent I believe you will be deemed to have accepted the machine so losing your right to 'no questions asked' refund.

 

- did you return the goods within 6 months of acceptance triggering the right to repair or replacement - I would argue strongly that BB agreed to delegate responsibility for the repair to you so this condition is tacitly waived by them but they might argue you rejected their offer to repair.

 

- is the repair adequate or can you reject it and insist on a refund - this is a question for you as the repairer I think. It sounds like you've done a great job but threaded joints... should you really get a new boiler with an unthreaded joint?

 

 

What Now?

-------------

 

If you've done a great job then grumble on CFUK. We'll empathise and grumble too but the Sale Goods Act doesn't provide compensation for aggro. £50 voucher and a tamper - meh!

 

If you choose to pursue a refund I think you need to you talk to BB immediately, calmly but firmly so that they understand that you intend to exercise your statutory right to reject the repair for a full refund including the cost of return postage (you are entitled to this where goods are faulty). Remember BB is a solid and reputable business with good people, I'm sure they will understand that this has gone far enough. I would be seeking their agreement to this route first though because it's not cut and dried and you don't want the hassle of small claims court.

 

My guess is that BB will be pleased to sell you an alternative machine, and they will return your faulty one to QM so will incur no loss themselves.

 

 

Précis from http://www.gov.uk Sellers Obligations

--------------------------------------------------

 

You must offer a full refund if an item is faulty, not as described or doesn’t do what it’s supposed to do.

 

You don’t have to refund a customer if they:

* knew an item was faulty when they bought it

* damaged an item by trying to repair it themselves or getting someone else to do it (though they may still have the right to a repair, replacement or partial refund)

 

Customers have exactly the same rights to refunds when they buy items in a sale as when they buy them at full price.

 

You must offer a refund to customers if they return goods within 14 days of receiving them. You must then refund the customer within 14 days of receiving the goods back. They don’t have to provide a reason.

 

Repairs and replacements

------------------------------

 

If a customer has ‘accepted’ an item, but later discovers a fault, you may have to repair or replace it. The customer can still reject the item after it’s been repaired or replaced.

 

A customer has accepted an item if they’ve:

* told you they’ve accepted it (having had enough opportunity to inspect the item before confirming they’ve received it)

* altered the item

 

You must repair or replace an item if a customer returns it within 6 months - unless you can prove it wasn’t faulty when they bought it.

 

You can ask a customer to prove an item was faulty when they bought it if they ask for a repair or replacement after 6 months.

 

Customers have up to 6 years to make a claim for an item they’ve bought from you (5 years in Scotland).

 

Warranties and guarantees

-------------------------------

A customer has the same right to free repairs or a replacement regardless of whether they have a warranty or guarantee or not. So you may still have to repair or replace goods if a customer’s warranty or guarantee has run out.

 

 

 

from Citizens Advice Bureau - Cost of return Postage

-------------------------------------------------------------

 

Sale of goods Act 1979 provides that a full refund includes the cost of return postage

 

http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/wales/consumer_w/consumer_common_problems_with_products_e/consumer_what_you_can_do_about_faulty_goods_e/faulty_goods_-_if_you_want_your_money_back.htm


Espresso: Ceado E92 (modified for single dose); Vesuvius; VST baskets and refractometer.

Other: Aeropress, Sowden and Alessi Moka Pot; Mazzer Robur doser with Auber timer; Mazzer Mini E; Expobar Leva Dual Boiler

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Charlie, in my view, QM should not have been involved as the warranty is with BB

 

I agree with this. The OP should not have gone directly to QM as the contract for the sale of the goods is with BB. If a replacement machine was wanted, BB should have been asked, not QM as they are under no legal obligation to oblige

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Charlie, in my view, QM should not have been involved as the warranty is with BB

 

Yes absolutely, I think this is a point that people still don't seem to get. These machines are sold with bought out warranties, the factories are totally unequipped to deal with warranty claims. if you buy a machine from any reseller who is not prepared to handle the warranty issues and repairs, then you won't usually have much luck dealing with the factories, because they are not geared up to deal with consumers/repairs across Europe. It's why I would counsel against buying machines or grinders from vendors who state that your warranty is with the Italian company....good luck on getting things sorted out.

 

I'll be honest here, I am amazed that Bella Barista offer an extra second years warranty on the stuff they sell and the fact that it's transferable if the machine is sold....most companies wouldn't dream of doing that with coffee machines, many don't even check they work properly before shipping them to you. Frank (the original poster), my advice would be to ignore the "forum lawyers" for now....decide what would make you happy as a resolution and discuss it with Bella Barista. If those fittings are cross threaded to the extent they may present a future problem, or you feel in any way unsure about the machine, talk to them and agree a course of action that you are happy with. I personally don't believe this sort of thread is very productive for anyone including you.


Crem One 2B DBPP (pre production version), ACS Vesuvius DBPP, Izzo Duetto DB, Minima DB, Lelit Bianca Prototype DBPP (paddle flow control), Lelit Mara X Prototype, BTC Machines: Roasters: Amazon Dalian 1kg Drum Roaster, other failed roasters: Grinders: Ceado E92, Niche US and UK, Eureka Atom Speciality 75, Eureka "Blow UP System", VDT Vibration thing: 145kg assorted greens: My reviews at https://coffeeequipmentreviews.wordpress.com/

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In response to the comments concerning this post I would say that I have been in touch with BB throughout (as it was they who sent me the relevant replacement parts) and when I mentioned contacting QM to Claudette it was she who gave me the contact name of Laura in Sales at QM so BB were aware of the problems I have been experiencing and know that I intended to contact them.

 

As for not putting this on the Forum - I feel that it is in everyone's interest to know of a problem when it occurs and how that problem is dealt with by those who should be concerned. What other people wish to do about their purchase is their choice but I have always found it to be useful to be made aware of potential problems before making a purchase.

 

What I really wanted was a fully factory-checked out machine rather than possibly go through the same scenario again. I don't think that is too much to ask for quite an expensive purchase.

 

With reference to the bought out warranties, I was unaware that they even existed and I doubt many members on the Forum were aware of this either.:confused:

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Your frustration is completely understandable Frank, however, QM sell via distributors like BB as they likely don't have the capacity to deal this directly in-house. This arrangement is probably true for most items purchased today and should benefit both customer and manufacturer in that they can concentrate on making product and you get faster turnaround if something does happen to fail (which is possible on any item you purchase) as it stays in the UK for repair. As others have said if you have a desired outcome in mind then you should contact BB and make the request directly of them and it is then their job to liaise with QM if required. If this route fails and your request was reasonable then backing it up with the letter of the law might help but everyone here hopes that it doesn't come down to that.

 

Good luck with a resolution.


DE1Pro, EK43 SSP, bloody tasty coffee!

GrindScience.com - My blog of coffee related ramblings

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