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Thread: The 40 second shot

  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob1 View Post
    What was the old advice again? 25-30 seconds for 25-30ml for a single or 50-60ml for a double from a 7g and 14g dose respectively? People are dosing more now and pulling tighter shots so logically the time has to increase. I've had drinkable shots that have run beyond the 50 second mark and below the 20 second mark. I've had really good shots around 25 seconds and 35 seconds and 45 seconds. I've had crap spanning the entire time frame too. How well a shot pulls shorter/longer seems to depend a lot on the roast and the age of it. As for "what is tasty?" it requires an experiment really. You might like a a coffee pulled in 30 seconds to x ratio but you might like it even more pulled in 40 or 25. As advice for the beginner it is basically saying don't be dogmatic, try different things: if a shot seems a bit thin and flat, maybe sour or maybe has a bitter after taste then try a longer or sorter extraction, try a different ratio, maybe even a different temperature, until you find something that you like and don't worry about whether or not it falls within certain arbitrary parameters. The way I approach 'reaching tasty' is to pull a shot for about 25-30 seconds 18g:40g and if I taste it and think the beans have more to give I grind finer and extract for longer, if not then good I've found my recipe. If I think I've pulled too much from the bean maybe I extract for less time or lower the temp, maybe I go for 45g instead of 40g just to see if that helps.
    In all seriousness, this is pretty much what I do when dialling in a bag of beans.
    Sage DB; Mazzer Major; VST 15g, 18g & 20g Baskets;TORR Trapez & Perger Tamper

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by DavecUK View Post

    remember when @dsc made this thread https://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthrea...ll-conic-users

    I think 2 people actually tried it, I was one of them and I learnt something that made me change my technique on the Niche...it made me realise that a quick stir of the grinds (as you saw me do with a chopstick in the Video) is worthwhile. Using skill and experience to guide experimentation and discover new things is one of the greatest gifts we have.
    I've dabbled in premixing 10 years ago when single dosing a Mazzer Major, but back then the rule was not to touch grinds post grinding, so I stopped doing it. It was a massive mistake which then led on to building my own grinder and finding out that if you single dose the fineness of the grind changes as the burr chamber empties (ie. grind goes coarser as the grinder eats the beans). So my advice would be: always try out things even if there's a bunch of people out there saying you shouldn't. Same goes for 50sec shots, yes there's a definition of espresso which says 25-30sec shots, but who cares, try 3min shots if you want and compare. If 50sec gives you nothing extra, screw it, keep pulling 25sec shots and save some time coffee is a subjective thing and it's not a competition, so try things and pick whatever is tastier / more convenient. Good comparison here is tea, how many of you uber hardcore coffee fanatics brew with tea bags and add milk cause you just want a quick brew?

    As for longer shots I prefer those to short ones as quite often there's a lower chance of low EY and underextraction. Same goes for larger ratios which is why I now mostly pull 3:1 ratio shots and constantly hit 23%EYs.

    T.
    Espresso: Londinium L1, ZR-71 grinder
    Photography: Flickr

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob1 View Post
    What was the old advice again? 25-30 seconds for 25-30ml for a single or 50-60ml for a double from a 7g and 14g dose respectively? People are dosing more now and pulling tighter shots so logically the time has to increase..
    That is the sot of thing that prompted my last post. It isn't logical at all. It's something that may work out and wont taste the same as other tuning arrangements. The only person that can say it's a god shot or what ever is the person that is drinking it. Some one else might see it as disgusting. The ratios suggested by basket sizes are interesting but like me I suspect few have tried them other than an odd shot that pops out while setting things up. People forget light singles and doubles too, 6 and 12g but it seems 6g has problems in practice and is likely to need more in it.

    Then there is the curry effect. We get used to what we eat and drink. Guilty, my MM is stronger than it used to be. The taste hangs around in my mouth for a good 15min after it's finished now. I like marmalade too so loads of the strongest I can find goes on my toast. If I eat that out at a local church cafe that uses volunteers to serve I can get a pretty good idea if the server has similar tastes by how much they put on. Seems I'm an extreme marmalade lover. Curries - I can't eat at Adil's any more nor a very local one since a change of ownership. Maybe I could eat at Adil's since Egon Ronay got at it but probably not.

    Personally I suspect that a lot of comments given to people who are starting out may not help at all really especially 1 to 2 in 30 sec. All that can be said about that is once some one achieves consistency in that area they are on the right track but it doesn't mean this is what they must do to produce a drink. Start telling people to change to 40sec or maybe 6bar brewing isn't any different. Coffee beans are cantankerous things just exploring weight in and 30sec can take a long time even if people stick to the same bean. Just one shot may not mean anything. 40sec and 6 bar are no different but by skipping the 30 sec they may miss something. Trying all will takes even longer. People generally buy a bean based on the description of it's taste or characteristics so it makes some sense to try and achieve something like that or why buy it in the first place. Then if need be explore variations.Some beans are best brewed for relatively low taste strength. Other the opposite and the strength of taste a given weight of bean varies according to type as well. It isn't a simple matter of roast level.

    John
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    In Use Sage DB+IMS Shower Screen, Mazzer Mini A, Ceado 37J. Profitec T64. Others Sage BE, Piccino. Projects Robur and Ascaso I-1 grinders
    More baskets than you could shake a stick at.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ajohn View Post
    Personally I suspect that a lot of comments given to people who are starting out may not help at all really especially 1 to 2 in 30 sec. All that can be said about that is once some one achieves consistency in that area they are on the right track but it doesn't mean this is what they must do to produce a drink. Start telling people to change to 40sec or maybe 6bar brewing isn't any different. Coffee beans are cantankerous things just exploring weight in and 30sec can take a long time even if people stick to the same bean. Just one shot may not mean anything. 40sec and 6 bar are no different but by skipping the 30 sec they may miss something. Trying all will takes even longer. People generally buy a bean based on the description of it's taste or characteristics so it makes some sense to try and achieve something like that or why buy it in the first place. Then if need be explore variations.Some beans are best brewed for relatively low taste strength. Other the opposite and the strength of taste a given weight of bean varies according to type as well. It isn't a simple matter of roast level.

    John
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    I don't agree with this. When people start out they generally know nothing and to give them a few easy signposts on the road to knowing something is essential. This is true of all learning I have come across in my life. When flying you teach people to solo, so they don't kill themselves, Physicians qualify, drivers pass their test, students pass GCSEs, Roasters learn to roast. These are all basic qualification and after that experience kicks in. they may think they know a lot, but in reality they don't....they have just taken the first steps in the right direction. Those steps have to be quite formulaic, simple and unambiguous to be an effective learning tool. Experience teaches judgement, wisdom and sufficient ability to experiment productively.

    To get people on the path they need to be given a few simple pointers to get early success.
    ACS Vesuvius DBPP, Izzo Duetto DB, Minima DB, Lelit Bianca Prototype DB (paddle flow control) BTC Machines: Roasters: Amazon Dalian 1kg Drum Roaster, other failed roasters: Grinders: Ceado E92, Niche US and UK: 145kg assorted greens: Just loads of stuff I forget I have.

  5. #55
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    During my early days of coffee learning I gained most help from forums such as this one backed up by attending several forum days where you learn from others in a hands on environment and get to play with a wide range of methods, machines, grinders and beans.

    There appears to be no such thing as a stupid question here and this must be the friendliest and most helpful forum on the net.

    Taste is certainly subjective and seems to come down to what you enjoy and if I change something can I tell the difference and was it better or worse (to me!) AND can I repeat it if it was better.

    Best advice received is to weigh in and out rather than time.

    Next was to find a bean I liked and stick with it whilst playing with all(sic) the variables.

    I also found it useful to taste ( from a teaspoon sip taken mid flow) beginning mid and late shot (or more frequently) which helped me to see how the taste changes during the shot (and perhaps at what point it is worth stopping as not much is being added)

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