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Thread: Decent espresso

  1. #1321
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    John,

    You may have answered this before, but what is your process when dialing in grind for a flow profile? I’m guessing you first look to see if the flow is matching your target profile and next check if pressure is tracking within a certain desired range. Have you found that flavor doesn’t vary much for grind changes when using a flow profile (assuming the flow target is met)?


    Thanks,
    Jeff

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    John,
    - related to dialing in a profile. For the years that I have been using my current machine - a Crossland CC1 that I purchased when the ZPM went belly up - I have been using only an 18gm VST basket. On the DE have you seen any way to automatically 'scale' a saved profile to produce a first approximation for a different sized basket if the beans, grind and tamping are the same?


    Ron

  3. #1323
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    Quote Originally Posted by runini View Post
    - related to dialing in a profile. For the years that I have been using my current machine - a Crossland CC1 that I purchased when the ZPM went belly up - I have been using only an 18gm VST basket. On the DE have you seen any way to automatically 'scale' a saved profile to produce a first approximation for a different sized basket if the beans, grind and tamping are the same?
    My naive speculation is that a flow profile would probably get you most of the way there. But preinfusion settings and the actual flow rate might need just a tiny bit of tweaking to be perfect, which I guess is what you are suggesting. :-) It does seem like grind would eventually need to be adjusted.

    I wonder if a well dialed in pressure profile is ultimately more consistent shot to shot as compared to a flow profile. It seems like a machine monitoring and adapting pressure would be more precise than with flow, but I’m no expert on the sensors involved.


    In any case, I’m looking forward to trying out both.

    --
    Jeff

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    Quote Originally Posted by gtjeffw View Post
    You may have answered this before, but what is your process when dialing in grind for a flow profile? Iím guessing you first look to see if the flow is matching your target profile and next check if pressure is tracking within a certain desired range.
    When I get new beans, I start with my standard profile:
    1) a 3.5 ml/s preinfusion, automatically exiting when pressure reaches 4 bar (takes 9s to 15s)
    2) a 2.2 ml/s flow rate for a total shot time around 35s
    3) 36g in glass

    And I grind 18g into the portafilter.

    If my shot runs between 6 bar and 12 bar around the goal time, my coffee already tastes pretty good.

    Iíll generally then fiddle with the grind and dose over the next few days to arrive at the best flavor for those beans.

    Quote Originally Posted by gtjeffw View Post
    Have you found that flavor doesnít vary much for grind changes when using a flow profile (assuming the flow target is met)?
    Changing the grind will require me to change the dose weight. A shot tasting great at 18g that I then fine the grind on, will need me to drop the dose down to (say) 15g or else the pressure will shoot over 13 bar and not much will extract. At 15g, I will keep the same extraction ratio (30g in cup) otherwise I donít like the flavor.

    So, I guess what Iím saying is that a shot that tastes good with 18g of coffee wonít taste much different at 15g, as long as the 2:1 extraction ratio is held. Fining the grind further does change the flavor, and over the next two weeks with a bean, I'll settle on my preferred dose/grind, generally between 15g and 19g.

    My opinion is that most of the taste variability between shots is currently due to puck prep, though bean aging is a constant that one needs to adjust to (personally, I do this by slightly increasing the dose by a few tenths of a gram).

    For reference, hereís the shot I just pulled and am drinking at the moment. It was a 15g, 25g out shot. I tend to pull shots shorter when theyíre going into milk (this was for a flat white). The thicker, lighter colored lines are the "god shot" reference shot Iím trying to hit.

    IMG_7730.jpg

    On the temperature side, note that is was the first shot of the day, just turned the machine on, cold portafilter (I had a double spout mistakenly in the machine, and switched to a bottomless at the last moment).

    Quote Originally Posted by runini View Post
    John,
    - related to dialing in a profile. For the years that I have been using my current machine - a Crossland CC1 that I purchased when the ZPM went belly up - I have been using only an 18gm VST basket. On the DE have you seen any way to automatically 'scale' a saved profile to produce a first approximation for a different sized basket if the beans, grind and tamping are the same?
    My opinion is that using a basket that is too large for the dose doesnít have a noticeable impact on the drink quality, except that:
    1) preinfusion will take a bit longer due to the extra headspace (but since we auto-exit preinfusion based on pressure, you wonít notice this)
    2) your puck will by muddier with too big a basket.

    My personal range of baskets that I actually use is 15g 18g 20g.

    Quote Originally Posted by gtjeffw View Post
    My naive speculation is that a flow profile would probably get you most of the way there. But preinfusion settings and the actual flow rate might need just a tiny bit of tweaking to be perfect, which I guess is what you are suggesting. :-) It does seem like grind would eventually need to be adjusted. I wonder if a well dialed in pressure profile is ultimately more consistent shot to shot as compared to a flow profile. It seems like a machine monitoring and adapting pressure would be more precise than with flow, but Iím no expert on the sensors involved.
    Flow profiling is gentler on less-than-perfect oucks (which are the majority, mine included) because channels in your puck wonít result in high-speed gushing like a pressure profile shot does.

    FLOW PROFILE: shots pulled at the same flow rate (Say, 2.2 ml/s), but +/- 10% resulting pressure change, will taste quite similar.

    PRESSURE PROFILE: shots at the same pressure (say, 9 bar), with +/- 10% flow rate, will taste quite different.

    -john
    Last edited by decent_espresso; 2 Days Ago at 03:39.

  5. #1325
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    Default Excel export

    Via tech support, I was asked a question today, that might be interesting to the group:
    After you make a shot, is it possible to save the pressure, flow, and temperature data as a function of time to a file? An ascii file in column format with time, presssure, flow, and temperature.
    Yes: each espresso shot is automatically saved in the /de1plus/history directory.

    There is a command line program that will convert each into a csv. Below are the commands, and the resulting excel file. I think this is pretty close to what you asked for. Use Android File Transfer to copy the directory to your computer.

    Note that two kinds of flow are given: water into the group, vs weight increase into the cup (if you have our Bluetooth scale). And two kinds of temperature are given: water temp into the group, and water temp behind the shower shield (which approximates the puck slurry temp)

    /d/admin/code/de1beta:ls history/*.shot
    history/1514876463.shot history/1514877094.shot history/1514951917.shot history/1514952468.shot history/1514953498.shot history/1515117285.shot history/1515117880.shot history/1515132836.shot history/1514876490.shot history/1514877179.shot history/1514951964.shot history/1514952601.shot history/1515030729.shot history/1515117867.shot history/1515117884.shot history/1515401198.shot history/1514877003.shot history/1514881060.shot history/1514952357.shot history/1514952994.shot history/1515042143.shot history/1515117875.shot history/1515118067.shot history/1515468514.shot

    /d/admin/code/de1beta:./history_export.tcl
    Exporting........................done

    /d/admin/code/de1beta:ls history/*.csv
    history/1514876463.csv history/1514877094.csv history/1514951917.csv history/1514952468.csv history/1514953498.csv history/1515117285.csv history/1515117880.csv history/1515132836.csv history/1514876490.csv history/1514877179.csv history/1514951964.csv history/1514952601.csv history/1515030729.csv history/1515117867.csv history/1515117884.csv history/1515401198.csv history/1514877003.csv history/1514881060.csv history/1514952357.csv history/1514952994.csv history/1515042143.csv history/1515117875.csv history/1515118067.csv history/1515468514.csv

    screen 2018-01-15 at 2.39.49 PM.jpg

  6. #1326
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    Via tech support, I was asked a question today, that might be interesting to the group:

    After you make a shot, is it possible to save the pressure, flow, and temperature data as a function of time to a file? An ascii file in column format with time, presssure, flow, and temperature.
    Yes: each espresso shot is automatically saved in the /de1plus/history directory.

    There is a command line program that will convert each into a csv. Below are the commands, and the resulting excel file. I think this is pretty close to what you asked for. Use Android File Transfer to copy the directory to your computer.

    Note that two kinds of flow are given: water into the group, vs weight increase into the cup (if you have our Bluetooth scale). And two kinds of temperature are given: water temp into the group, and water temp behind the shower shield (which approximates the puck slurry temp)

    /d/admin/code/de1beta:ls history/*.shot
    history/1514876463.shot history/1514877094.shot history/1514951917.shot history/1514952468.shot history/1514953498.shot history/1515117285.shot history/1515117880.shot history/1515132836.shot history/1514876490.shot history/1514877179.shot history/1514951964.shot history/1514952601.shot history/1515030729.shot history/1515117867.shot history/1515117884.shot history/1515401198.shot history/1514877003.shot history/1514881060.shot history/1514952357.shot history/1514952994.shot history/1515042143.shot history/1515117875.shot history/1515118067.shot history/1515468514.shot

    /d/admin/code/de1beta:./history_export.tcl
    Exporting........................done

    /d/admin/code/de1beta:ls history/*.csv
    history/1514876463.csv history/1514877094.csv history/1514951917.csv history/1514952468.csv history/1514953498.csv history/1515117285.csv history/1515117880.csv history/1515132836.csv history/1514876490.csv history/1514877179.csv history/1514951964.csv history/1514952601.csv history/1515030729.csv history/1515117867.csv history/1515117884.csv history/1515401198.csv
    history/1514877003.csv history/1514881060.csv history/1514952357.csv history/1514952994.csv history/1515042143.csv history/1515117875.csv history/1515118067.csv history/1515468514.csv

    screen 2018-01-15 at 2.39.49 PM-1.jpg

  7. #1327
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    Default Setting up the espresso machine tablet

    Screenshot_2014-12-31-19-06-22 copy.jpg

    The past 7 or so days for me have been about setting the included tablet to be as friendly and professional as I can make it. I've intentionally set things up different from a normal Android tablet normally arrives, so as to make the tablet experience a bit easier.

    Here are a bunch of choices I've made, that I'm open to changing my mind on:

    - the screen doesn't power off if the tablet is plugged in. That way, you can tap the tablet at any time to warm up the espresso machine

    - all Google related icons have been removed from the main screen. If you want to run other apps, tap the ... icon on the center bottom

    - a custom wallpaper is installed, with only one important icon, in the center.

    - you push the power button to wake the tablet. No gesture needed. This is just to simplify usage.

    - there is no requirement to have a Google Play Store account, nor to connect to wifi (though wifi is needed when/if you want to software update). Software updates are not automatic because you might feel that your machine is working perfectly well and that you don't want to change anything.

    - the tablet will arrive to you pre-Bluetooth-paired to your machine.

    - the tablet will arrive preconfigured (just power it on). At the moment, the tablets are set up to be in English, but eventually, I'd like to pre-set up the tablet to whatever language and time zone you used when ordering your machine from us.

    - there is a self-standing "Decent Update" program icon, on the bottom left of the screen. This will update your software. This same feature is available in the app. However, I realized that if I accidentally sent out a totally broken version of my software, you would have no way to update to a non-broken one. So, I've made this alternate "Decent Update" for that (hopefully to never occur) eventuality.

    - "show touch events on screen" is enabled, as I find it helpful to have little "ghost clouds" appear under my finger as I tap. If you disagree, you can change it.

    - the tablet is pre-rooted with a recent free version of supersu, and the kernel is not locked down ("adb" runs in root mode). The tablet is "hacker friendly".

    - the DE1 and DE1+ software is installed in /sdcard/de1 (or /sdcard/de1+) and not buried inside Android in a read-only location, in order to make it easy for you to find files and change things as you wish. Each tablet contains the full source code to the GUI.

    - I decided to not have the DE1 app automatically launch when the tablet powers up, because it's not how people except a touch device to work. You do need to tap the espresso machine icon.


    Things I'd like to improve:

    - unfortunately, there is no way for me to remove the Google Search Bar from the main menu. Believe me, I've tried. If someone figures out how to do this, I will be indebted to them!

    - I'd like a larger icon, but Android positively fights you over this. There is a way to do it that I know of, by writing self-standing Desktop Widget, and I'd love it if someone figure this out for me.

  8. #1328
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    At the moment, that home screen looks very bare - is it worth considering making an android 'widget' that looked a bit more substantial and could potentially hold 'at a glance information' on the home screen?

    Not sure about the always on screen, but this is always something that can be changed by the user.

    No auto updates means no auto security patches from Google does it not?... I feel like this may have been discussed before but having a non updated device attached to your home network is considered a risk.

    Regarding the search bar a Google for "XDA remove google search bar" returns a few hit but they all seem very simple and essentially require disabling/uninstalling the Google search app - but this may only be an option in certain roms.
    Last edited by Dylan; 1 Day Ago at 11:58.

  9. #1329
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    Quote Originally Posted by decent_espresso View Post
    Things I'd like to improve:

    - unfortunately, there is no way for me to remove the Google Search Bar from the main menu. Believe me, I've tried. If someone figures out how to do this, I will be indebted to them!

    - I'd like a larger icon, but Android positively fights you over this. There is a way to do it that I know of, by writing self-standing Desktop Widget, and I'd love it if someone figure this out for me.
    I suspect both of these can be done by installing a different launcher.

  10. #1330
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dylan View Post
    At the moment, that home screen looks very bare - is it worth considering making an android 'widget' that looked a bit more substantial and could potentially hold 'at a glance information' on the home screen?
    Bare was kind of the goal, because that way there's not much to think about. There are three choices:
    1) run the DE1 software
    2) run some other software
    3) update the DE1 software.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dylan View Post
    Not sure about the always on screen, but this is always something that can be changed by the user.
    There is a physical power button on the tablet turns the screen on/off.

    Here's how the tablet/espresso machine interaction works:
    1) you can have the espresso machine go into low-power mode when the DE1 tablet software starts the screen saver (or if you cause that to happen by hitting the "power" icon on the tablet screen)
    2) and for the espresso machine to warm up (high power mode) when the tablet is tapped to come out of screen saver mode

    If you want to turn the tablet off, the typical work flow is:
    1) make espresso
    2) hit the "power" button on the tablet to turn on the screen saver
    3) push the physical power button on the tablet's side, to turn the tablet screen off.

    When you want to start the espresso machine you:
    1) tap the physical power button on the tablet's side
    2) tap the screen

    Quote Originally Posted by Dylan View Post
    No auto updates means no auto security patches from Google does it not?... I feel like this may have been discussed before but having a non updated device attached to your home network is considered a risk.
    No, this is not the case. The android tablet's OS will auto-update with security patches, as this is a google licensed OS distribution, when you connect it to wifi.

    By "no updates" I mean not updating the DE1 software, if you so choose. I personally find it irritating to have software that I like perfectly well, change under me without my consent.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dylan View Post
    Regarding the search bar a Google for "XDA remove google search bar" returns a few hit but they all seem very simple and essentially require disabling/uninstalling the Google search app - but this may only be an option in certain roms.
    Yep, I've seen those same things, and unfortunately the documented option is not present in the Android version we have on the tablet. It's simply missing where it should be.

    I expect that there is an XML file that can be edited, to make the search bar go away. However, google likes its branding, so they haven't made this an obvious feature to disable.

    At any rate, I suspect that among the first batch of users there will be some Android savvy users who will have some improvements figured out that I can apply to the v1.1 releases.

    Quote Originally Posted by roastini View Post
    I suspect both of these can be done by installing a different launcher.
    Yes, absolutely, but I considered that to be off the mission critical path of shipping a machine to make espresso, and thus preferred to stay with the Google-provided "launcher3".

    My assumption is that in a few years, we'll be moving Decent to one of the recent Android (v8 or better) that now requires vendors to be compatible with the open source Android distribution. However, no affordable-to-us tablet is currently available for Android 8. In a few years.

    -john
    Last edited by decent_espresso; 8 Hours Ago at 04:55.

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