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Thread: Decent espresso

  1. #1301
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    Default Steaming

    Quote Originally Posted by decent_espresso View Post
    Not sure I understand - are you on the DE1 or the DE1+ gui? The DE1+ shows you seconds steaming as you do it, and when you stop steaming, the total time you steamed remains on screen.
    I'm using the DE1+ gui.

    In the first pane of the Steam, the pane on the left, I've labeled as "Step 1" wants a number of seconds. Until I figure out how many seconds I need, I suppose I'll set it to some arbitrary number like 240 seconds, then when I hit Stop, I'll see the number to specify. That works. My suggestion was to not have to use Pane 1's auto-off and make Steam entirely manual until I know.

    1stPane.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by embrya View Post
    Ok, I understand. And which setting is meant to emulate a slayer style shot?
    These shot presets are all variations on a "Slayer Shot"
    - Gentle preinfusion flow profile
    - Very slow preinfusion for light roasts
    - Slow preinfusion for light roasts

    I've been told that 20s is a typical Slayer shot preinfusion most frequently, but people have also claimed 30s and occasionally 40s to 60s.

    Since "Slayer shots" are needle valve and paddle-controlled, and not automated with an over-pressure valve, I treat them as "flow controlled" shots, and not pressure controlled.

    Personally, I've had the best taste results with Slayer-style shot preinfusion set to a 0.5 bar exit, with a flow rate at 2 ml/s. That will exit preinfusion around 30s to 40s.

    However, you can also do a 60s preinfusion at 1 ml/s, but the water will start to drip out before any pressure happens on the puck, so you need to make preinfusion exit be time-based if you do this. That flavor is more pour-over with this technique.

    A future feature, once we have our bluetooth scales out there (hopefully later this summer), will be for preinfusion to exit on "first drop" out of the portafilter.

    Because the DE1+ charts "gravimetric flow rate" (speed of espresso into the cup) against "flow rate into the puck", you can see how successful the preinfusion was. The two lines should equal each other in a successfully preinfusion. This is *really* helpful in understanding flow rate speeds and exit conditions. I can't really live without a scale under my cup when I make espresso.

    Does that info help?

    -john
    Last edited by decent_espresso; 09-01-18 at 04:19.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jwCrema View Post
    In the first pane of the Steam, the pane on the left, I've labeled as "Step 1" wants a number of seconds. Until I figure out how many seconds I need, I suppose I'll set it to some arbitrary number like 240 seconds, then when I hit Stop, I'll see the number to specify. That works. My suggestion was to not have to use Pane 1's auto-off and make Steam entirely manual until I know.
    For safety reasons, and because we can (since we're using a computer controlled valve, and not a manual one), I prefer to have a timeout on every "dangerous" function. I believe I've defaulted steam timeout to 200s, and the maximum steam time allowed at once is 255s. In that time you can heat a litre to >70ºC from refrigerator temperature.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MrShades View Post
    Having played with this a little, using the "Insight" skin - when I pour an espresso, the control is initially "START" (which is good and logical) and changes to "STOP" when I'm pouring (again, seems good). However, when I STOP the shot the control changes to "RESTART". I assumed that this was a resume function, rather than a start (all over again) function. However, in using it - it seems to be identical to the "START" function (pouring a new shot) - so it's confusing as to why it's labelled "RESTART". On the "FLUSH" and "STEAM" tabs, the start goes to stop and then restart - but if you move off those tabs onto another, then "START" is reinstated when you return. On the Espresso tab, whenever you go back to it, it's always "RESTART" and you never see "START" ever again... unless turning off/on. Bug or intentional?
    It's intentional because once a shot has concluded I want to indicate that as a different state.

    After a shot concludes:
    1) there is a heart icon displayed where you can enter shot and tasting notes, TDS/EY and other things
    2) a countdown timer shows you how long your espresso has been languishing, unloved.
    3) there is a table showing timing and water volume used at each stage of the espresso.
    4) if you have a scale, the final espresso cup weight is also shown

    The START/RESTART is not entirely consistent, I know, but there's a method to the madness.

    On FLush/Water/Steam, RESTART is the word used after something has concluded, instead of START. If you move away from that tab and come back, I'm assuming you no longer need to know what the previous operation completed and so START returns as the button's word.

    On Espresso, RESTART (and the heart and data indicators) are "sticky", but the charts are "sticky" too. This is because I often will make a latte, and then taste it, and hmm... "this doesn't taste right, I wonder what the curves on this shot were" and so I click back to "Espresso", and the shot's info is still all there for me to peruse. I don't want the Espresso page to reset until I RESTART and make another shot.

    I will often go to Settings to adjust the shot timings, but want to refer back to the shot I just pulled. So... Settings, ... whoops, cancel... look at shot... back to Settings again.

    And finally, if I'm drinking a latte, I can't enter shot tasting notes until I've put milk into my drink, which means I make an espresso, click the steam tab, make my latte, now click back to espresso and click the heart icon.

    I suppose this is a long way of saying that the GUI has been considerably tuned to how I, an amateur barista, want to interact with it, in reality, rather than as created in a design lab.

    This means it's more idiosyncratic, but hopefully, gets in the way less.

    Here's another example. With the pressure/flow charts zoomed, there is no more space for the tabs. But steam is the most common thing to tap after making an espresso, so I snuck just that tab into the available right top corner.

    screen 2018-01-09 at 11.28.35 AM.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by decent_espresso View Post
    These shot presets are all variations on a "Slayer Shot"
    - Gentle preinfusion flow profile
    - Very slow preinfusion for light roasts
    - Slow preinfusion for light roasts

    I've been told that 20s is a typical Slayer shot preinfusion most frequently, but people have also claimed 30s and occasionally 40s to 60s.

    Since "Slayer shots" are needle valve and paddle-controlled, and not automated with an over-pressure valve, I treat them as "flow controlled" shots, and not pressure controlled.

    Personally, I've had the best taste results with Slayer-style shot preinfusion set to a 0.5 bar exit, with a flow rate at 2 ml/s. That will exit preinfusion around 30s to 40s.

    However, you can also do a 60s preinfusion at 1 ml/s, but the water will start to drip out before any pressure happens on the puck, so you need to make preinfusion exit be time-based if you do this. That flavor is more pour-over with this technique.

    A future feature, once we have our bluetooth scales out there (hopefully later this summer), will be for preinfusion to exit on "first drop" out of the portafilter.

    Because the DE1+ charts "gravimetric flow rate" (speed of espresso into the cup) against "flow rate into the puck", you can see how successful the preinfusion was. The two lines should equal each other in a successfully preinfusion. This is *really* helpful in understanding flow rate speeds and exit conditions. I can't really live without a scale under my cup when I make espresso.

    Does that info help?

    -john
    Thanks John, that helps a lot. These presets are a good starting point for me and I will first test some of them to get a feeling how things are going with the DE1+.
    I do not use a scale actually but once I have my DE1+ I will go for your scale to use the benefits of the direct communication. On your website it is mentioned that it will ship in May, so this is an outdated information as you said it will be available late summer (that would be July or August for Europe).
    Stefan

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    Quote Originally Posted by embrya View Post
    I do not use a scale actually but once I have my DE1+ I will go for your scale to use the benefits of the direct communication. On your website it is mentioned that it will ship in May, so this is an outdated information as you said it will be available late summer (that would be July or August for Europe).
    We do have a bluetooth 0.1g scale that works and is shipping today and that's the "Skale II" that sells at £84 https://decentespresso.com/scale

    As to our own scale, its "tabled" at the moment, so I don't know exactly when it'll come out. We have the mechanical and industrial design pretty far along, but the PCB and firmware both need to be done from scratch. So yeah, May is likely way too optimistic at this point, as shipping the DE1 product line is really the focus now. I'll update the "decent scale" ship date now.

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    Wow, just reading through this thread and liking what I am reading very much! Great to see innovation and an open dialogue with the community.

    Apologies if I have missed it but when are subsequent batches of machines likely to be available? I've been trying to maximise my current Rancilio Silvia but all the tech in these machines is going to be very hard to resist!

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    Quote Originally Posted by RobW View Post
    Wow, just reading through this thread and liking what I am reading very much! Great to see innovation and an open dialogue with the community.

    Apologies if I have missed it but when are subsequent batches of machines likely to be available? I've been trying to maximise my current Rancilio Silvia but all the tech in these machines is going to be very hard to resist!
    Yeah, this is awesome!

    Short answer to sum up all the past information for you (for details check the previous posts in this long thread):
    The first batch of 300 machines is sold out and will be shipped within the next 2-3 months (for Europe due to CE certification first machines are predicted for March...). The next batch of 1000 machines is available as soon as the first pre-release models (110 Volt, so USA customers mainly) are out and some independent reviews are available. This shall be in spring 2018.

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    Quote Originally Posted by embrya View Post
    Thanks John, that helps a lot. These presets are a good starting point for me and I will first test some of them to get a feeling how things are going with the DE1+.
    I do not use a scale actually but once I have my DE1+ I will go for your scale to use the benefits of the direct communication. On your website it is mentioned that it will ship in May, so this is an outdated information as you said it will be available late summer (that would be July or August for Europe).
    Stefan
    The whole concept of preinfusion has been an amazing learning experience in the last year. The difference in the cup using preinfusion with some number of seconds has been made a ridiculous impact on what we drink. Right now I'm counting "one Mississippi, two Mississippi, yada up to twenty Mississippi" first thing in the morning before I've gained my bearings. Can't wait to automate this!

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    Quote Originally Posted by RobW View Post
    Apologies if I have missed it but when are subsequent batches of machines likely to be available? I've been trying to maximise my current Rancilio Silvia but all the tech in these machines is going to be very hard to resist!
    Hi Rob : the next batch of machines are scheduled to ship in April, with ordering for that batch to start in February, once public, independent reviews of the machines we have already shipped, are readable on the net.

    Quote Originally Posted by jwCrema View Post
    The whole concept of preinfusion has been an amazing learning experience in the last year. The difference in the cup using preinfusion with some number of seconds has been made a ridiculous impact on what we drink. Right now I'm counting "one Mississippi, two Mississippi, yada up to twenty Mississippi" first thing in the morning before I've gained my bearings. Can't wait to automate this!
    Hey, I'm glad you've found that. Professional machines with a Gicleur feature built into the group head are effectively doing a somewhat-gentle preinfusion, which is part of their quality secret. Machines without a Gicleur (and no preinfusion) are much more difficult to make non-channeling shots with.

    With my E61 two group with manual on/off levers, I used to count 5 seconds on, then 5 seconds off, and then start the shot.

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