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Thread: Decent espresso

  1. #1091
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    Quote Originally Posted by decent_espresso View Post
    I made this movie to get your thoughts before I finish coding it!
    I am not sure if it is visually clear enough that the "Advanced" tab is based on the "Pressure" or "Flow" tab. In the video you clicked on "Flow" and it changed (added a step) the "Advanced" settings.

  2. #1092
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    I watched the video this morning, and was initially thrown off by the Settings icon to launch the shot configuration editor. I see the use of the Settings icon for the configuration of the application itself. I can see the Settings Icon to configure that machine that were discussed on the previous page:

    Quote Originally Posted by patrickff View Post
    What about a textfield that allows to set/remove options that aren't exposed by the UI? (maybe ala VIM "set [option]=[value])
    I imagine having many shot configurations, of which I may describe some as a baseline, then copy and tweak variations on it. A command button that says "Advanced Shot Editor" or something like that would make it clearer.

    But this is a nit - overall, the rest of the user experience within the editor itself is very intuitive to my eye.

  3. #1093
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    Quote Originally Posted by patrickff View Post
    I am not sure if it is visually clear enough that the "Advanced" tab is based on the "Pressure" or "Flow" tab. In the video you clicked on "Flow" and it changed (added a step) the "Advanced" settings.
    Yeah, I struggled with that too. I could have put an "advanced" button inside the flow and pressure pages, rather than as a separate tab, and that would have been clearer.

    The problem with that approach, though, is that there is no necessity at all that an Advanced shot profile be based on an existing profile. You can delete the steps and create an entirely new profile (and save it). For example, next week I'm working on a "pour over" profile that (obviously) will be entirely flow based, but (also obviously) will not consider pressure at all.

    In other words, "advanced shots" are really any shot that you can't make with the two existing pressure/flow wizards. I didn't want to make it seem that you could "only" modify wizard created shots.

    Quote Originally Posted by jwCrema View Post
    I watched the video this morning, and was initially thrown off by the Settings icon to launch the shot configuration editor. I see the use of the Settings icon for the configuration of the application itself. I can see the Settings Icon to configure that machine that were discussed on the previous page:
    In a web-based or desktop app, I agree, and there would be a pull down menu with separate entries. However, this app is running on a 9" tablet, every button has to be at least 1cm square in size to be finger-friendly, and pull down menus are uncommon in tablet apps.

    Thus, the app has two modes "make drinks" vs "change settings". Since most of the day-to-day is in "make drinks" mode, I want to keep that as uncluttered as possible.

    Quote Originally Posted by jwCrema View Post
    I imagine having many shot configurations, of which I may describe some as a baseline, then copy and tweak variations on it. A command button that says "Advanced Shot Editor" or something like that would make it clearer. But this is a nit - overall, the rest of the user experience within the editor itself is very intuitive to my eye.
    Currently, to edit a shot you hit settings, then the "profile" tab. Then hit "save" to go back.

    However, you just gave me an idea, which is that if you're editing a shot, then hit save, when you hit "settings" you should go back to where you were in settings (editing the shot), NOT back to the first tab. That'll speed up the workflow.

  4. #1094
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    Quote Originally Posted by decent_espresso View Post
    Ray and I are extremely paranoid about the DE1 firmware, as those are our trade secrets that make our machine do its clever things.

    We're using a serialized encryption chip on the PC boards that makes it very unlikely that the source code be extracted from the DE1 and modified. We buy the encryption chips in lots, where the supplier provides us with unique chips. You'd also need our 64bit private encryption key to do an update, as the update process checks that the firmware has been appropriately signed. We're using the best-available current methods to prevent what you describe.

    Regarding the Android firmware: if the NSA (or other state-based actor) is able to intercept the Android tablet on its way to you via UPS, I cannot do anything to prevent that. I don't know what else you mean by "protecting the chain of possession". The tablet goes from here to you via UPS or Fedex. If you don't trust this chain, you're free to use your own tablet and destroy the one we sent you.

    In a few years, if Android 8 succeeds, we'll hopefully be able to re-image the supplied tablet with a Google-supplied generic android image.
    I really don't like the sound of the firmware lockdown. Primarily because it takes away control from the owner. Most prosumer coffee machines are highly customisable - and repairable. The most complicated electronic part on my current machine is the PID controller - which is a commodity item. If anything breaks on my machine, it's easy to replace it and fix it myself. If any component doesn't do what I want, I can replace it or modify it. It doesn't sound like that will be the case for the DE1, which is annoying if I want to change some aspects of machine operation. It's downright bad if the electronics break - I'm sure you'd hope that DE doesn't go bust and can repair these machines, but if that does happen then all DE1 owners are short of luck if the electronics in their machine fail (whereas mechanical parts are easier to repair). I don't think that's an unreasonable worry for buyers given DE is a small operation at this time.

    In fact, to me, locking down the process to require signed binaries is outright hostile to owners. I can almost understand trying to protect the DE authored code, but preventing other code from running is a defect IMHO.

    I'm glad that at least the tablet software will be open (at least that's what the website tells me). My experience is that mobile devices tend to become useless after 2 years (in other words I'd be replacing the tablet a few times over the life of the machine) so locking that down would really kill the machine in my eyes.

  5. #1095
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    Actually i like software security.

    The extreme scenario of business failure is usually handled by putting the software in escrow to be distributed to clients on that unfortunate event .
    Espresso: Ceado E92 (modified for single dose); Vesuvius; VST baskets and refractometer.
    Other: Aeropress, Sowden and Alessi Moka Pot; Mazzer Robur doser with Auber timer; Mazzer Mini E; Expobar Leva Dual Boiler

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    Quote Originally Posted by viveur View Post
    In fact, to me, locking down the process to require signed binaries is outright hostile to owners. I can almost understand trying to protect the DE authored code, but preventing other code from running is a defect IMHO.
    You will not find a single home appliance that allows user editing of firmware because it is forbidden by both UL and CE safety standards. Nothing is allowed by UL/CE that enables the user to bypass built in safeties, and editing firmware falls into that category. So, even if we wanted to let you edit our firmware, we would not be allowed to.

    As to your worry about firmware problems: if you flip a DIP switch on the DE1 pc board and power up the machine, the pc board will revert to the factory default firmware. This is a backup safety feature in case your machine were updated to very, very broken firmware.

    As to your point about PID controllers being commodity items and preferable: what it seems that you're arguing for is a firmware-free espresso machine, that only combines generic components (such as generic PID controllers). You are of course welcome to prefer that kind of machine, but a "no firmware" policy on the basis of "I don't like it if I can't modify the firmware" will limit your buying choices.

    Note that the firmware update program is also open source, and updating can happen over bluetooth or a serial port (using the standard ATMEL update software).

    Even the GS/3 has firmware, and like our machines (and every home appliance) you are not able to edit the firmware in that espresso machine.
    Last edited by decent_espresso; 3 Weeks Ago at 07:32.

  7. #1097
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    Quote Originally Posted by Obnic View Post
    Actually i like software security. The extreme scenario of business failure is usually handled by putting the software in escrow to be distributed to clients on that unfortunate event .
    Not only is the tablet software open source, but all the firmware updates will be in the Google Play store version history of the app. The current firmware is embedded as a .hex file with the android app distribution.

    Several web sites automatically archive all versions of every app on the Google Play store, so even if Decent were to "go away" you would be able to download historical tablet software and firmware.

    We're about as open as we can be, legally. I've been in talks for two years with the Free Software Foundation, as we're trying to get the "Respects Your Freedom hardware product certification" http://www.fsf.org/resources/hw/endo...s-your-freedom

    Even the FSF certification allows firmware to not be open sourced, because it's a safety certification reality. Today, the only thing blocking us from getting certified is the fact that our tablet isn't using an open source Android distribution. We're working on solving that.

  8. #1098
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    Yes. Exactly. Particularly your point about CE mark certification.

    I should have added that i think escrow in this case would be overkill. And impractical for some third party components.
    Espresso: Ceado E92 (modified for single dose); Vesuvius; VST baskets and refractometer.
    Other: Aeropress, Sowden and Alessi Moka Pot; Mazzer Robur doser with Auber timer; Mazzer Mini E; Expobar Leva Dual Boiler

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    Yea! Great news!

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